Susan from PA Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 On a popular internet site is this absolutely gorgeous tooth out of the Hell Creek Formation in North Dakota. The tooth is perfect and the colors are stunning! The problem is that it is being sold as a juvenile T.rex tooth, and it is clearly a Nanotyrannus tooth. If it were priced at $300, I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat. Description says that it is too robust to be a Nano tooth. . Notice no picture of the base of the tooth is shown in the listing, so it's difficult for one to be 100% certain. Size is only 1.26 inches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDudeCO Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 wow that is amazing colour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan from PA Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, FossilDudeCO said: wow that is amazing colour! I know! It's a beauty! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 18 minutes ago, Susan from PA said: On a popular internet site is this absolutely gorgeous tooth out of the Hell Creek Formation in North Dakota. The tooth is perfect and the colors are stunning! The problem is that it is being sold as a juvenile T.rex tooth, and it is clearly a Nanotyrannus tooth. If it were priced at $300, I'd snatch it up in a heartbeat. Description says that it is too robust to be a Nano tooth. . Notice no picture of the base of the tooth is shown in the listing, so it's difficult for one to be 100% certain. Size is only 1.26 inches. @Susan from PA Since most people don't know your experience with these fossils, on what characteristics do you distinguish the difference in this tooth based on this one photo? The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 My first look at this tooth said Nanotyrannus and I've seen many. The serrations look to fine for it to be Rex. There is an additional photo on the listing and the Mesial carina has a typical Nano twist which you do not see on a Rex. This size Rex tooth would be robust (fat) and this tooth does not appear to have that characteristic although a view of the base would confirm that. My two cents... Edit: I also think the tip would not be as pointed if it was Rex, more rounded with the serrations clearly going around the tip. Let me also say if it did not have a Rex price tag it would be in my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDudeCO Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Tis' a gorgeous piece! The seller does also say that there is debate about Nanotyrannus being valid. I do agree some more picture may help clear this up though. In my opinion Troodon and Susan are EXTREMELY knowledgeable about Hell Creek though so I would defer to their opinions on this piece! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossiling Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 3 hours ago, FossilDudeCO said: Tis' a gorgeous piece! The seller does also say that there is debate about Nanotyrannus being valid. I do agree some more picture may help clear this up though. In my opinion Troodon and Susan are EXTREMELY knowledgeable about Hell Creek though so I would defer to their opinions on this piece! About Nanotyrannus being valid，I would say no. Plus, how do they prove it is a Tyrannosaurus? I would put it as tyrannosaurid indet. Keep looking! They're everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan from PA Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Sorry @JohnJ. East Coaster here, so I was asleep when you asked me what my experiences are. So, here you go. I've been collecting dinosaur fossils exclusively for the past 6 years. I'm a dentist, so I like to collect dinosaur teeth by nature. I have dinosaur teeth from 18 different species in my collection. Not as many as @Troodon, but a decent collection. At one time, I had around 15 or so Nano teeth in my collection, and maybe 6 or 7 different T.rex teeth, including a tiny rooted one that is less than 2 inches. I've actually given away most of these teeth to kids and other collectors over the years. I just gave one of them to a friend of my son for his birthday, another dinosaur lover just last week. So, I'll ask you a question: Have you ever paid $1300 for a tooth that was sold as a juvenile T.rex tooth, only to learn later that it was actually a Nano, worth less than half as much? Well, I have, 6 years ago. It isn't a lot of fun when you have to swallow that pill. So, when that happens to you, you take the time to learn the differences. Unfortunately, I was asleep, and Troodon answered much of it, but I'll add a few things:. First of all, when anyone sees the words "juvenile" or "Sub-adult", especially when referring to T.rex teeth, that should bring up a red flag immediately. The serrations on this teeth are too delicate to prove that it is from a T.rex. The serrations on even the smallest of T.rex teeth, are much more robust. When going toward the root surface or base of the tooth, you can see from both photos that the tooth clearly flattens, indicative of Nano teeth. I am certain that if a photo of the base were provided, you would see that it is rectangular in shape , and not the thick D-shape that a T.rex tooth has. Anyone selling a T.rex tooth knows that a photo of the base of the tooth is imperative. No one should purchase a tooth without that photo. Sorry, but I try to be a bright spot in this hobby that is full of greed and deception at times. I wasn't going to share this in the forum, but I think it is appropriate now to share it. Last summer, a little boy, probably 8 years old from Colorado, found a 5 or 6 inch T.rex tooth while digging with Walter Stein and Paleoadventures. His Mother posted pictures on the Facebook fossil forum. I asked whether or not he got to keep the tooth, and she said that he didn't. It was scientifically important, and he had to leave it with Mr. Stein. That bothered me that he didn't have a T.rex tooth of his own. Recently, I was very blessed to be able to purchase a fully rooted T.rex tooth. So, I contacted Walter Stein, who was gracious enough to make the arrangements, and yesterday, this young boy received a very nice 3 inch T.rex tooth that was in my collection. The look on his face said it all. So , in closing, I choose to alert others and be what is right with this hobby. It's what makes me, me. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 WONDERFUL finish to your story!!!!! I am sure that young boy is forever changed by your generosity. It brings me much pleasure in distributing my finds to those interested. During a recent trip to Florida, I collected and was given by my "guide" quite a few sharks teeth. My technician's young son, Avery, is a shark lover. When I presented him with a baggie full of ocean worn small Venice Beach fossil teeth, as you mentioned, the look on his face said it all. I am sure it was better than any gift Santa Claus had ever given him. Avery is struggling with school, so I then sat down with Avery and made him a deal. I showed him the better sharks teeth that I had. Told him if he wanted to grow up and work with sharks, he would need a good education. With this, I said if you show me that you take your education seriously, these teeth are yours!! Since that day, his mother says homework is done without a struggle, grades are up, mom is happy and teacher is happy!! I put these teeth into a display and presented it to him a week ago! We will see how long this stimulus lasts. He will probably want 6 inch meg teeth when he hits high school to keep him interested in education!! Again my compliments to you for your wonderful act of kindness! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Susan from PA said: It was scientifically important. Ha ha import to science or to his wallet....it's only a Rex tooth. Unfortunately that's the nature of those type of digs and explained well ahead of it.. I do remember seeing it on FB, he held it with two hands it was such a large crown, one had to feel sorry for the child. However it's a happy ending because of you're generosity. He has to be one of the luckiest boys on this planet because of you. I don't know of many collectors that would have parted with a large Trex tooth. That certainly points out the better side of collecting, thank you for sharing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 On 3/18/2017 at 1:51 AM, fossiling said: About Nanotyrannus being valid，I would say no. Plus, how do they prove it is a Tyrannosaurus? I would put it as tyrannosaurid indet. Not interested into getting into another debate. However the real issue is the price difference between what is sold as a Rex tooth and Nano, appox $1000/ inch to versus $100 so what you call it matters. All things being equal I would agree with your identification until the debate is resolved, unfortunately they are not equal. The price premium on Rex material is absolutely crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Susan, You generosity is an inspiration to our community. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Susan, you did a wonderful thing in promoting paleontology and ensuring young kids get to hold a piece of natural history in their hands. You are the best kind of collector there is. As for baby/juvenile Rex teeth identification, I have a 1.05 incher Hell Creek tooth identified as Rex due to its robustness, profile and rounded cross section. The last pic shows it next to an adult Rex. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 3 hours ago, Susan from PA said: Sorry, but I try to be a bright spot in this hobby that is full of greed and deception at times. No need for an apology. Frank and you have made the case for distinctive differences. That will help many others that see this topic. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 2 hours ago, Troodon said: Ha ha import to science or to his wallet....it's only a Rex tooth. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamptonsDoc Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Great job Susan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 39 minutes ago, -Andy- said: Susan, you did a wonderful thing in promoting paleontology and ensuring young kids get to hold a piece of natural history in their hands. You are the best kind of collector there is. As for baby/juvenile Rex teeth identification, I have a 1.05 incher Hell Creek tooth identified as Rex due to its robustness, profile and rounded cross section. The last pic shows it next to an adult Rex. That's the visual on what robustness looks like.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 This is not meant to fuel any debate,but is just for the sake of completeness(NANO)tyrannus) Besides Witmer/Ridgely some terrific other papers as well 11,3MB year:2010 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 And for some obscure reason,this gets overlooked ,i think schubertungartyrannosdentitwearetholofunctapp50-093.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 and the same goes for this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 The tooth has been sold. Let's hope it's someone on TFF or one of the Facebook groups. If he/she posts pictures, we can confirm the truth, and hopefully encourage him/her to get a refund from the dealer. Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hxmendoza Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I agree with everyone's assessment that this tooth is a Nanotyrannus tooth. I never buy a tooth without seeing it's basal cross section. Anyway, I do have to disagree with Troodon's comment on the tooth showing a lingual twist of the mesial serrations, being a feature not found on T. rex teeth. This is incorrect. You do, in fact, see a lingual twist on the mesial serrations of T. rex. You find the lingual twist on the anterior maxillary teeth. And on most all of the dentary teeth. All the way down to the last dentary tooth. Rearward maxillary teeth don't generally have the lingual twist though. Also, maxillary rex teeth are generally more labial-lingually compressed compared to dentary teeth. Which is why a juvenile tooth that is labial-lingually compressed cannot automatically be assumed to only be Nanotyrannus. Denticle size then comes into play. Attached are photos of a cast of a left maxillary rex tooth I used to own. Note the lingual twist. Here is a cast of an even larger tooth that is not as labial-lingually compressed (it is probably the second right maxillary tooth) same lingual twist. Here is a rear right dentary tooth. Note the lingual twist: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgroper Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Really informative thread. Susan, what a generous thing to have done, if karma exists I hope good things come your way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracorex_hogwartsia Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 On 3/18/2017 at 10:11 PM, -Andy- said: The tooth has been sold. Let's hope it's someone on TFF or one of the Facebook groups. If he/she posts pictures, we can confirm the truth, and hopefully encourage him/her to get a refund from the dealer. Oh I don't think we need to encourage the buyer to get a refund. If the buyer is like me, I don't care what the tooth is ID'd as. I always take it with a grain of salt anyway that the tooth is probably misidentified. If I like the tooth I like the tooth and I'll buy it. I saw this tooth before it sold and thought it was a beautiful tooth. I think the buyer will be very happy with this tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan from PA Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 5 hours ago, sandgroper said: Really informative thread. Susan, what a generous thing to have done, if karma exists I hope good things come your way. Thanks so much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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