Identification of Patagonia's Theropod Teeth

[Troodon]

Periodically you see theropod material offered for sale from Patagonia and to a collector that's awesome.  Typically its specimens obtained before the embargo laws went into affect from Argentina.   My experience in looking at what has been offered is that it's often mis-identified as to locality, age and species.   Sellers put commonly known dinosaurs identification tags to their specimen like Carnotaurus with complete disregard to the actual age and locality of where that dinosaur was described. That may simply be the information provided to them but they don't verify it and it's easy to do.

 

 The reality is that theropod diversity in Patagonia is huge, over vast collecting areas, several provinces,  numerous formations and ages.  Understanding theropods from this region is just beginning and little is understood, sound familiar   Identification of isolated teeth unless there is something diagnostic about the tooth is virtually impossible.    I have a difficult time accepting the notion that local diggers knew all the science around what they were collecting,  maintained accurate records and provided detailed information to foreign buyers.  It was all about the Peso.

 

A recent publication sheds some light on discoveries and I've attached a couple of images to help with diagnosis of the locality and age of specimens you may see offered for sale.  Material from this region is very cool but be careful, don't let emotion take over.  Just make sure it's was legally acquired and be prepared to identify it as Theropod indet. and don't be fooled that the name offered is valid.  Be happy you're just having the opportunity to acquire such a rare specimen.

 

Evolution of the carnivorous dinosaurs during the Cretaceous: The evidence from Patagonia

Fernando E. Novas, Federico L. Agnolín, Martín D. Ezcurra, Juan Porfiri, Juan I. Canale

 

 

 

[Troodon]

Although not mentioned in my initial post everything I said there also applies to other types of dinosaurs you see offered for sale from Patagonia, especially sauropod material. 

[Susan from PA]

Thanks for sharing @Troodon!  I'm trying to post photos of the one tooth that I have, but it won't load and only 986kb.  

 

 

[Susan from PA]

Here is the only tooth in my collection from Argentina.  This is not normally the quality of tooth that I look for in my collection, but as Troodon has said, these teeth from this area are not easy to come by.  It was collected before the embargo, and according to the dealer, was in a very old private collection.  It is from the Allen Formation, Rio Provence.   It was sold as a Carnotaurus tooth, which it isn't, as Carnotaurus is not described in the Allen Formation or the Rio Provence.  However, I have a 7 year old son who loves Carnotaurus, so I took a shot in the dark. .    Even though the tooth was misidentified, I am very happy to have it in my collection, and I don't regret my purchase.  

[FossilDudeCO]

Thanks Troodon, informative as always!

 

Pictured below are teeth from my Argentina collection as well!

 

 

It may be misidentified  

 

It may be an ugly tooth Susan, but you are right...location, location, location!

 

 

[Troodon]

Susan your son must have been very happy to see that Carnotaurus tooth , great story thanks for sharing and a great Mom.

 

 

FossilDude your collection is too transparent to say much about 

[Susan from PA]

@Troodon and @FossilDudeCO, you two are hilarious!   Yes, it is indeed an ugly tooth.  My son also refuses to believe that it's not from a Carnotaurus because the "paper that came with it" says that it is.  

 

I'll highjack this thread for something that may or may not be interesting to you.  When Sue the T.rex was purchased by the Field Museum with help from both Disney and McDonalds, Disney was about to open a new park in Florida called Animal Kingdom.  There is a section of this park dedicated to dinosaurs, and also a dark ride called "Dinosaur", which features Carnotaurus  as its main antagonist.   As part of Its agreement with the Field Museum, a fossil prep lab was built in the que of the ride, and some of SUE's fossils were prepped in this lab, as would be riders looked on.  As time would move on, the fossils lab was removed and now has a cast of a "Carnotaurus" in its place.  However this cast is a little bit of a Frankenstein.  The head is an actual cast from the Holotype specimen, but the rest was created by Disney using a T.rex as a guide.  So, if you take a stroll through the Dinosaur ride at Animal Kingdom hoping to see what an actual Carnotaurus looks like, you'll be disappointed.  There is, however a real bronze cast of SUE outside the ride pavilion.  However, it doesn't hold a candle to the real thing.  

[Dracorex_hogwartsia]

Here are a couple teeth of mine that I have posted before.

[Troodon]

Beautiful pair of teeth

[Susan from PA]

Those are beautiful Dracorex!  

[Dracorex_hogwartsia]

I haven't really seen any South American dinosaur teeth for sale in years. I picked up a really nice sauropod tooth sold as Saltasaurus a few years back. The two teeth I posted were purchased close to 20 years ago. 

[Troodon]

Yes, the majority of teeth were indeed sold back when there was no embargo.   They do spring up from tines to time from older collections as evident by Susan's tooth which I think was acquired last year.  I would love to see those older collection teeth on the market today.  

 

The posting could also help individuals fine tune the ID of teeth in their collections.

[John]

Oddly enough, the same warning applies to the truckloads of small Moroccan dinosaur teeth out there. None of these small teeth are described, even though they have been known for decades. Deltadromeus, for example, is described in only one short paper with no illustration of the teeth because the skull is unknown! I assume this lack of description comes from the fact that virtually all that is found are loose teeth and no one assigns loose teeth to known species anymore since dinosaur teeth are generally not diagnostic the way mammal teeth are.

[Troodon]

13 hours ago, John said:

Oddly enough, the same warning applies to the truckloads of small Moroccan dinosaur teeth out there. None of these small teeth are described, even though they have been known for decades. Deltadromeus, for example, is described in only one short paper with no illustration of the teeth because the skull is unknown! I assume this lack of description comes from the fact that virtually all that is found are loose teeth and no one assigns loose teeth to known species anymore since dinosaur teeth are generally not diagnostic the way mammal teeth are.

 

The difference with Morocco is that collectors at least know the age, formation and locality, unlike Patagonia.  But to your point I agree totally why I put this topic together on the Kem Kem.  Unfortunately the unknowns are not just the small teeth but ALL the teeth to the surprise of most collectors.

 

 

 

[-Andy-]

On 3/26/2017 at 6:27 AM, John said:

Oddly enough, the same warning applies to the truckloads of small Moroccan dinosaur teeth out there. None of these small teeth are described, even though they have been known for decades. Deltadromeus, for example, is described in only one short paper with no illustration of the teeth because the skull is unknown! I assume this lack of description comes from the fact that virtually all that is found are loose teeth and no one assigns loose teeth to known species anymore since dinosaur teeth are generally not diagnostic the way mammal teeth are.

 

Although we do not yet know what Deltadromeus is like, there are small Moroccan teeth of specific morphology that we can attribute to dromaeosaurids. They are small (below 1 inch), recurved, with bigger Distal serrations than Mesial ones, and very thin

 

  

We have abellisaurids as well, with their distinctive shape and angled serrations.

 

 

 

And finally, we have our "deltadromeus"/"rugops" teeth, which are supposedly 1.5 to 2.5 inches long, with that dip in the middle, that particular curved shape, and serrations that are different from Carch ones (I can't explain in words, this is something best shown if you have both teeth side by side under a microscope. @Troodon could explain it better; in fact, the first picture belongs to him.) I disagree with calling these ones Theropod indet. as they do have common identifying factors.

   

[doushantuo]

argendino

[doushantuo]

Gauchodino

[Troodon]

The best we can do at the moment is attribute these smaller teeth to families but none to a species or even a genus.  Not even larger teeth.  @-Andy- check out my updated post on Kem Kem

[-Andy-]

Just now, Troodon said:

@-Andy- the best we can do at the moment is attribute these smaller teeth to families but none to a species or even a genus.  Not even larger teeth.

 

I understand. Couldn't we assign a temporary name like 'Theropod type b3' for example to this particular type of teeth? Or maybe 'Neovenatoridae indet.' teeth?

 

It seems counter-productive to clump them with all other Theropod indet. teeth.

[doushantuo]

paper,withOTU'S*

hmm,indications of gregarious behaviour..(Homer Simpson noise)

*Operational taxonomic units

[Troodon]

@-Andy-  hey in my revised page 1 of Kem Kem I go as far as saying the they may be Deltadromeus check it out .  I am reluctant to call them anything other than Theropod indet. because I'm not a paleontologist and all the other ID I use have been discussed and presented in papers.  When I see a paleontologist call them Neovenatorid or something else, I will use that term.  I don't want to make things up like dealers.

[Troodon]

@-Andy- I hope someone studies these teeth  soon or finds a skull... with chompers....need to end the mystery 

[-Andy-]

51 minutes ago, Troodon said:

@-Andy- I hope someone studies these teeth  soon or finds a skull... with chompers....need to end the mystery 

 

@Troodon Hear! Hear!

 

Anyway, I digress. Patagonia theropod teeth are great even if we can't assign a genus to them yet. I hope to get one eventually (at a not-so-premium price).

[Troodon]

2 minutes ago, -Andy- said:

 

@Troodon Hear! Hear!

 

Anyway, I digress. Patagonia theropod teeth are great even if we can't assign a genus to them yet. I hope to get one eventually (at a not-so-premium price).

 

Have you ever seen any sold from Asian sources?   Not sure any will be without a premium, why, seller is in charge.  

[-Andy-]

8 hours ago, Troodon said:

 

Have you ever seen any sold from Asian sources?   Not sure any will be without a premium, why, seller is in charge.  

 

I've never seen any. Though I must say I haven't tried hard to look. I assume Japanese dealers might have, but it would be at a premium price I guess.

 

That's true though, these teeth are so rare the sellers get to decide what they want to charge.