Two Lance Formation Claws

[NOLA_9.3x74r]

Hello Everyone,

These two items were both collected by me last summer in Eastern Wyoming, Lance Formation (Upper Cretaceous).  They come from a productive sandy microsite which also produced material from triceratops, hadrosaur, dromeosaur, fish, amphibian, crocodile, and if I remember correctly, mammal.  I found the two claws below, and was looking for opinions on what they might belong to.  I searched for a while trying to find the rest of the larger partial claw, but no luck.  It may be tough to make out the grooves on that larger partial specimen due to weathering and lighting, but they are there.  

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

 

 

[Susan from PA]

Hi and welcome to the forum!  Nice finds!  If anyone can help, @Troodon can!  

 

These claws do appear to be dinosaurian, as I can see the blood grooves.  However, trying to identify them to species level without the distal and especially the proximal ends can be very problematic.  I personally cannot identify them beyond Theropod indet.    Let's see what Troodon has to say.  

 

If if you can get us a picture of the ventral side of the smaller claw, that might help.  I might see some small indentations on that side in the first picture that might be diagnostic.  

 

[NOLA_9.3x74r]

Thanks for looking @Susan from PA  

 

Here is a Ventral shot of the small claw:

 

[Troodon]

My opinion with your small claw is that it's not theropod possibly some reptile or mammal.  My rational for that is that the flexor tubercle (FT) on a theropod is bulbus not a concave plateau like yours.  The ventral side is also a bit too flatish for me. 

I included images of what would expect to see on a theropod.

 

 

Your other claw is definitely from a large theropod.  Unfortunately like Susan said without the diagnostic ends it's guess work and while others can create something from fragments I'm not in that business.  Collecting in the Lance is fun and I hope you have other opportunities to do so.

[NOLA_9.3x74r]

Thanks for weighing in @Troodon;  "large therapod" is still pretty exciting.  If I may ask -

 

-Where is the diagram you posted from?

 

-I recall a while back I saw a great thread you did on therapod claws, with examples.  I tried searching for it but was unable to locate it.  Is it still around?

 

I'll be collecting in the Lance again this year.  I have a few other small things I may post for ID comments in the coming weeks.  

 

Thanks again for looking and commenting to both you and @Susan from PA.

[jpc]

Nice finds... Claws are not hugely common in Lance bone beds.  

[Susan from PA]

4 hours ago, NOLA_9.3x74r said:

Thanks for weighing in @Troodon;  "large therapod" is still pretty exciting.  If I may ask -

 

-Where is the diagram you posted from?

 

-I recall a while back I saw a great thread you did on therapod claws, with examples.  I tried searching for it but was unable to locate it.  Is it still around?

 

I'll be collecting in the Lance again this year.  I have a few other small things I may post for ID comments in the coming weeks.  

 

Thanks again for looking and commenting to both you and @Susan from PA.

That's awesome that you get to collect again in the Lance!

 

Here is the thread that @Troodon wrote last year.  It's a fantastic guide.  I actually had trouble finding it myself, as I was looking for it last night as well.  I have it saved in the photos section of my iPad, but couldn't find the link here.  You can also find more of his posts on dinosaur identification by typing "My Jurassic Park" in the search area.  

 

 

[Troodon]

9 hours ago, NOLA_9.3x74r said:

 

-Where is the diagram you posted from?

 

-I recall a while back I saw a great thread you did on therapod claws, with examples.  I tried searching for it but was unable to locate it.  Is it still around?

 

I'll be collecting in the Lance again this year.  I have a few other small things I may post for ID comments in the coming weeks.  

 

@Susan from PA

 

The search function although good has some drawbacks in finding specific topics.  I've made the admins aware of it and suggested pinning reference type topics like the one on claws.  Not an easy task but hopefully it's high on the bucket list.

 

Glad you can get back to the Lance it's full of nice finds.  You never know what you can run into.. Please feel free to post any item we enjoy helping.

 

I'll look for that diagram it was just from a Google search.  Found it, here it is

Agnolin y Chiarelli.pdf

 

@Susan from PA  thanks for finding that topic 

[NOLA_9.3x74r]

Yep, that's the thread Susan.  Thanks again.

 

 

[PFOOLEY]

On 3/26/2017 at 6:06 AM, Troodon said:

 

The search function...  

 

...results are as such...

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/search/&q="Theropod claws"&sortby=relevancy 

 

...when Theropod is spelled correctly.  

 

On 3/26/2017 at 6:06 AM, Troodon said:

... Not an easy task ("...suggested pinning reference type topics...") but hopefully it's high on the bucket list.

 

...still in the hopper.  

[hxmendoza]

NOLA, my opinion is that your little claw is definitely a dromaeosaurid foot claw. One of the two "walking" claws. 

 

Dromaeosaur foot claws have highly variable flexor tubercles. You can put two velociraptor foot skeletons next to each other and the "walking" claw's flexor tubercles can look very different. Even position claw to position claw. 

 

They all have noticeable flexor tubercles but they can vary from somewhat subtle, to very defined. Some can be "V" shaped, some can be rounded, and others can be square shaped. Some have subtle dimples, others very defined dimples.

 

Even claw curvature varies. Some can be fairly straight, others very curved.

 

Your claw easily falls into the range expected morphologically for these dromaeosaurid foot claws.  

 

Below are several pictures of dromaeosaurid foot claws. From Deinonychus, to Saurornitholestes, to Velociraptor, and even the probable Saurornitholestes nicknamed "Julieraptor".

 

These pictures should pretty much resolve your small claw ID question, at least to the family level. 

 

I agree with everyone else that the larger claw is too incomplete to determine to anything other than theropod sp. indeterminate.

 

Deinonychus:

 

Velociraptor:

 

cf. Saurornitholestes:

 

"Julieraptor":

[Troodon]

Nola now you have a couple of opinions and I still stick to my diagnosis and unfortunately it does not help your ID.   Your claws tubercle is unlike any other theropod I've seen and they come all different shapes, its more plateau shaped with a cavity in it.  

[Troodon]

3 hours ago, PFOOLEY said:

 

...results are as such...

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/search/&q="Theropod claws"&sortby=relevancy 

 

...when Theropod is spelled correctly.  

 

 

...still in the hopper.  

 

I also had no problem finding this one.  Your comments however seem to suggest everything is fine and dandy which is the farthest  from reality.   Not to repeat my comments from my other post in another topic but Ive have a ton of problems finding my topics but being experienced will eventually get there.  Newbie's or guests are the most affected.  As side from spelling mistakes most don't know how to navigate or what the right search question to ask.  This is a very hot topic for me because if the admins don't believe there is an issue nothing will ever change. All the hard work members put into reference posts are not properly accessed.  

@Fossildude19

[Fossildude19]

9 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

I also had no problem finding this one.  Your comments however seem to suggest everything is fine and dandy which is the farthest  from reality.   Not to repeat my comments from my other post in another topic but Ive have a ton of problems finding my topics but being experienced will eventually get there.  Newbie's or guests are the most affected.  As side from spelling mistakes most don't know how to navigate or what the right search question to ask.  This is a very hot topic for me because if the admins don't believe there is an issue nothing will ever change. All the hard work members put into reference posts are not properly accessed.  

@Fossildude19

 

Frank,

 

I don't see Mike's comments as suggesting that everything is  "fine and dandy".  

 

 

3 hours ago, PFOOLEY said:

 

...results are as such...

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/search/&q="Theropod claws"&sortby=relevancy 

 

...when Theropod is spelled correctly.  

 

 

...still in the hopper.  

 

He is mentioning and demonstrating that the search functions work fine when used properly. 

He also mentions that the solution is "in the hopper".  The tone I read from the smiley faces is that he is just  stating a fact. 

He makes no comments that this is not something we should be working on. 

 

Where you got your assumption that we do not believe there is a problem as you say, I have no idea. 

It is just wrong.    We started working on this the first time you brought it up. 

 

Sure, ... we could just pin all of your great posts, Frank,...  but then we have to wade through a page and a half of Pinned topics.  

 

Bottom line is, We're working on it.

Like the Collections area (you may remember, ... THAT was years in the making), this will take a bit of time.  It won't take years in this case But we are still tweaking it.

 

As I have stated, we are (and have been for a few weeks now)  working on something and trying it out behind the scenes. 

As soon as we have figured out the logistics of it all, and come to a consensus about certain things, we will put it to use.

We have 2 models we are working on, and trying to tweak for ease of use. 

 

The trick is to implement something that will not cause too much extra moderation, (we are volunteers, after all  ) and that will allow members to "pin" or post links to what they feel are among the best posts in certain categories.   We need to create something that will grow with the Forum, and will be useful for everyone.  

 

Please be patient, Frank.  

 

Good things come to those who wait.   

Regards,

 

[JohnJ]

Actually, we have been testing methods to improve content accessibility long before recent mentions of the issue.  Although, it may seem the 'wheels move slow' in regard to these changes, as Tim mentioned, this forum is run by volunteers.  As we all know, other issues in life sometimes have greater priority than time we can devote to forum operations.  Still, our goal is a solution that can grow with us and is self-moderating; implications to the contrary, notwithstanding.

[Troodon]

2 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

 

Frank,

 

I don't see Mike's comments as suggesting that everything is  "fine and dandy".  

 

 

 

He is mentioning and demonstrating that the search functions work fine when used properly. 

He also mentions that the solution is "in the hopper".  The tone I read from the smiley faces is that he is just  stating a fact. 

He makes no comments that this is not something we should be working on. 

 

Where you got your assumption that we do not believe there is a problem as you say, I have no idea. 

It is just wrong.    We started working on this the first time you brought it up. 

 

Sure, ... we could just pin all of your great posts, Frank,...  but then we have to wade through a page and a half of Pinned topics.  

 

Bottom line is, We're working on it.

Like the Collections area (you may remember, ... THAT was years in the making), this will take a bit of time.  It won't take years in this case But we are still tweaking it.

 

As I have stated, we are (and have been for a few weeks now)  working on something and trying it out behind the scenes. 

As soon as we have figured out the logistics of it all, and come to a consensus about certain things, we will put it to use.

We have 2 models we are working on, and trying to tweak for ease of use. 

 

The trick is to implement something that will not cause too much extra moderation, (we are volunteers, after all  ) and that will allow members to "pin" or post links to what they feel are among the best posts in certain categories.   We need to create something that will grow with the Forum, and will be useful for everyone.  

 

Please be patient, Frank.  

 

Good things come to those who wait.   

Regards,

 

 

Thank you for the response, I'm am being very patient and my activity hopefully proves that.  Just reacting to "reading between the lines"  which I apologize if I mis-read the unwritten words.

[NOLA_9.3x74r]

@hxmendoza Thanks for weighing in, greatly appreciated.  The more pictures I get to see of claws , the better.   Also, I've never heard of Julieraptor, so off to Google I go.

 

As for the large claw..I'm going back to the same site this year, so who knows...perhaps I'll find the rest of it (yea, I know, not likely, but it doesn't hurt to dream).

 

I have another weathered claw I collected from the Hell Creek formation, which I need to take some photos of.  Can't wait to see what everyone thinks of that one.

[NOLA_9.3x74r]

Also, you can't imagine my embarrassment at realizing that I misspelled "theropod" in my tags.  FWIW, I believe when I searched for the Troodon's thread, I did so by looking at all of his posts.  Probably not the best way to do so, and my apologies if that has caused any anxiety.

[hxmendoza]

You are very welcome NOLA.

[-Andy-]

Great claws! Having spoken to various collectors these few years, I (and I am sure others too) can personally vouch for @hxmendoza's knowledge in dinosaur claws.

[hxmendoza]

Thank you @-Andy-

[Susan from PA]

@NOLA_9.3x74r, here is some information from the Black Hills Institute on Julieraptor.   As far as I know, it is now at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto, Canada, and has not yet been described.  

 

http://www.bhigr.com/store/product.php?productid=679

 

[LordTrilobite]

It should be noted that some think Bamiraptor, Julieraptor and Saurornitholestes are a growth series of the same species. But Julieraptor hasn't been described yet and I don't think there's a whole lot of material on Saurornitholestes.

[hxmendoza]

Stay tuned for a description of an excellent, mostly complete skeleton of Saurornitholestes langstoni to be forthcoming from Philip Currie and team.

He told me he couldn't send me better, hi resolution photos of the specimen until it got published, which will hopefully be soon.

[-Andy-]

20 minutes ago, hxmendoza said:

Stay tuned for a description of an excellent, mostly complete skeleton of Saurornitholestes langstoni to be forthcoming from Philip Currie and team.

je told me he couldn't send me better, hi resolution photos of the specimen until it got published, which will hopefully soon.

 

 

BY THE GODS!!!