AndOe Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Postponing one planned purchase prompts searching for another, funny how that works Well, this is one I've started obsessing about somewhat, a lower Mosasaur jaw in matrix. I've read through a lot of threads on the subject on here and figured a few things; most importantly, it's not one of the common tourist souvenir Moroccan fake jaws with inserted teeth. It is from a Mosasaur (at least according to the seller and how it appears to my newbie eyes) but others here will surely have a more accurate label. Now, the seller readily declares there's been some repair and/or restoration--- mainly to the roots of the teeth. I am not sure if he suggests repaired roots or ones built "from the ground up" but I've asked for more info and detailed photos of these areas and expect to have them soon. It's a relatively big piece, the jaw itself appears to be around 30" long, and the seller labels it as having been found in the Atlas Mountains of Morocco. What do you think? Collectible or do you see too many repairs and/or restorations for it to be worthwhile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bguild Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Hey there, The front 5 erupted teeth on this jaw seem to have their roots restored. These roots look to be made completely of plaster. However, the crowns of all the teeth are real and the roots of the back two teeth are real. The front 5 teeth could still have been found along with this jaw and could be considered associated, but they also could have come from another animal and may have been added to the matrix after the fact. Not sure. That being said the actual jaw bone itself is great! I'm not seeing any red flags there. I myself have a mosasaur jaw section with two roots restored with plaster, but the rest of the piece looks great so I went for it. It's all up to whether you're okay with the restoration. Root reconstruction of this fashion is very common with these kinds of fossils. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 That's from the Khourigba Phosphate Deposits, not Atlas Mountains. I don't see any red flags. There is actual jaw material, though most of the teeth look planted in. The white area between the teeth and the jaw is plaster as Bguild said. In my opinion, this is an okay piece, and leagues ahead of the common fake jaws you see online. 1 Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I'm on my phone and not getting a good view of the teeth but I do see white which looks like plaster like the others have mentioned. It's very common for the Moroccan to prep Mosasaur jaws by adding teeth. You have to decide if that's acceptable or not for your collection. Jaws are available with original teeth you just have to be patient and keep looking. @LordTrilobite can comment further and ID species 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Real jaw. Real teeth. Probably a composite. Looks like a lower left jaw. Nice size too. The teeth look like it's probably Prognathodon sp. The jaw also fits with this ID. But most of the joins between the roots and teeth look very dubious. I'd lean towards most of the teeth being placed in there. I also don't like the look of the two anterior teeth. In many mosasaurs including Prognathodon, the teeth get more slender towards the front. The first tooth seems fatter than the second tooth. I think only the last two teeth look somewhat trustworthy. The bad lighting on the photos also helps disguise any possible reconstruction. It's very hard to tell from these photos but it looks like some matrix around the teeth area has also been filled in to make the matrix look more flush and presentable. The bone of the jaw itself is really nice. Besides the partial crushing there are some really nice details. But I would pass on this one unless the price reflects that it's likely been altered. There are so many fantastic affordable mosasaur jaws on the market. So why settle for something that might be a composite? 4 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thank you all! Now that it is mentioned it is clear also to me that the 5 teeth from front really do differ when it comes to the appearance of the root... that's a shame, I really like the appearance otherwise but not a fan of messed with items either... the price here certainly must reflect this as I see other less presentable and smaller pieces for sale online for a good deal more than is asked for this one. The shipping costs are a bit high though, for such a big piece traveling the distance from the US to Norway, so currently asking myself if it's worth it... as noted I too like the look of the jaw itself disregarding the tooth transplants/restorations. Hmmm... no matter the outcome, I will add any other photos the seller may provide, if for nothing else than to have it examined going by close-ups rather than the poorer overview shots provided here. Thanks again for the assistance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Could I ask what you suppose an average going price from a dealer for such a jaw, same size, without such restorations would be? Just to get a grip on this in relation to the price of this one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I've not shopped for one, so I'm not aware of prices, but have to believe they would vary considerably since no two are the same. Dealers also have different factors affecting price including quality, completeness and profit margin. Someone may offer a suggestion but you can do an Internet search and see what out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Searching using google instead of the startpage engine I found a few more examples still for sale, none really comparable in size w. price listed though... but, it appears the one I've posted here has at least had a sizeable price reduction due to the work done on it as it's priced nearly the same as pieces only a third of its size--- but, then again, those smaller pieces are seemingly not restored/messed with in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 5 hours ago, Bguild said: Hey there, The front 5 erupted teeth on this jaw seem to have their roots restored. These roots look to be made completely of plaster. However, the crowns of all the teeth are real and the roots of the back two teeth are real. The front 5 teeth could still have been found along with this jaw and could be considered associated, but they also could have come from another animal and may have been added to the matrix after the fact. Not sure. That being said the actual jaw bone itself is great! I'm not seeing any red flags there. I myself have a mosasaur jaw section with two roots restored with plaster, but the rest of the piece looks great so I went for it. It's all up to whether you're okay with the restoration. Root reconstruction of this fashion is very common with these kinds of fossils. Thanks again for your input--- I'm kind of back and forth on this one after the input here... not a fan of major restorations either but I really love the look of the huge jawbone itself though... And I'd love to see your Mosasaur jaw if possible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 24 minutes ago, AndOe said: Thanks again for your input--- I'm kind of back and forth on this one after the input here... not a fan of major restorations either but I really love the look of the huge jawbone itself though... And I'd love to see your Mosasaur jaw if possible! Here is the Bguild topic on his jaw. It's very nice jaw and the topic was very similiar to yours. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thanks for the link --- appears this might be from the same dealer, nice jaw! Anyway, will post more on this one when I get the close-ups--- even though it's pretty much a done deal as far as the restored roots go I think it will be interesting to study some up close images as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bguild Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 1 hour ago, AndOe said: Thanks for the link --- appears this might be from the same dealer, nice jaw! Anyway, will post more on this one when I get the close-ups--- even though it's pretty much a done deal as far as the restored roots go I think it will be interesting to study some up close images as well. That's what caught my eye . Those poorly lite images looked familiar. I've purchased a couple items from this seller and have no complaints! Thanks @Troodon for providing the link. For comparison: On the jaw I have the front most tooth has had it's root completely reconstructed using plaster in a similar fashion to the jaw you're showing. The middle teeth of my jaw have a couple smaller areas where plaster was used, but as more of a repair job versus a complete reconstruction. The very middle tooth with no root was added to this jaw and I'm actually planning to remove it because it's from a different species of Mosasaur. The rear most tooth is completely natural. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Again, nice jaw you've got there--- thanks for sharing the photos here as well, love the creatures you display beneath it too! Yeah, although not being in any way, shape or form proficient with species I can tell there's something different with said tooth as well... removing it sounds like a good plan. Once you know something's been added post recovery, no matter your collecting field, it's best to take appropriate action as it will always be a point of annoyance if the piece is on display. You'll remove and keep it that way then? Received the individual shots of the teeth and roots, the seller admits, like in the ad, that the roots are where the work on it post recovery has been done--- kinda doesn't stick out as much in these, not as plaster-like bright white... I guess lighting matters here though. And as noted here earlier, the rear two appear to be pretty natural and as they should be (?). Guessing there's no change in the verdict anyhow but it's nice seeing these areas more up close. Not sure where I stand yet... the price seems right all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bguild Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Yeah, the plan is to remove the extra tooth and fill it in with some matrix from the same block. As for this jaw, my opinion remains the same after looking at the close ups of the teeth. I really like the size and look of the jaw bone itself. The price is looks to be pretty fair all things considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 They did a better repair than most using a sand color with the teeth in place of white. The teeth in the last photo appear natural although there may have been some matrix added next to the jaw bone. Let us know what you decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I stand by my initial response. A composite. Those last two teeth still look good. And that first tooth definitly does not belong. It's the wrong shape for that far in front. Aspecially compared to the second one. Which is likely also composited in, but it fits much better. If it wasn't for that first tooth it might have been a nice composite showpiece. But that one tooth kinda ruins it imo. You could of course remove the composite teeth. But you'd be left with a jaw with probably just two teeth in the back and one erupting tooth near the front. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 I sent the seller an email earlier today re. the findings here and inquired about the price and if it would be negotiable... the shipping cost ramps it up quite a bit so I don't think I'll be getting it unless there's possibility for some negotiation. I actually thought about removal of the added teeth but not sure how that would look with only two in the back and the erupting one. I have leads on others but they are a lot smaller... on the fence right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 He doesn't really seem to be budging much on price, only offering a gamble on a slightly lower price before shipping rates are determined after packing it up, with me paying any eventual extra costs. Most others I see up now are in the 10' area (give or take) and usually around $100-$200 below this asking price--- here's one of the nicer ones, in this price range, with what appears to be all original teeth native to the jaw. around 8 inches. The side facing us here is the "inside" of the jaw though... right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 That one looks a lot better. And yes that is the inside of the left lower jaw. Lower jaws are pretty discinct due to that large groove on the inside. But, due to the poor lighting again. It is hard to see if those teeth are really properly attached to the jaw or if they are composites. I don't see any immediate red flags. But there are some areas that I'd personally want to have a better look at before buying. Otherwise it's a nice piece. Most genuine jaws do not have that many intact teeth. The jaw bone (dentary) also seems mostly complete even though it has been broken. The matrix has definitely been filled in. But I wouldn't buy it without a closer look at the joins. The teeth look almost too perfect. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Thanks for the info--- And, yes... this one's definitely looking less messed with and possibly complete but your "too perfect" remark is also duly noted. Any specific areas you'd want a closer look at? I've already requested better shots of the root area of the teeth so besides that... will post more photos when/if I get them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Think I forgot to post this one--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 24 minutes ago, AndOe said: Thanks for the info--- And, yes... this one's definitely looking less messed with and possibly complete but your "too perfect" remark is also duly noted. Any specific areas you'd want a closer look at? I've already requested better shots of the root area of the teeth so besides that... will post more photos when/if I get them. The closeups are pretty good. It's just that the lighting is suboptimal so it's hard to see if the joins between the teeth and roots are real. But even if it's a composite, it's a better looking one than the first one. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndOe Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 Yeah, the photos provided were over-saturated and pretty dark so I had to fix them some... I've asked the seller for photos in brighter/ more natural lighting, hope they'll provide. They seem easy enough to deal with so far so hope to have them soon--- Looks like they are real roots though, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Yeah. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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