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Shellseeker

Horse Tooth Size

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Shellseeker

So I found a relatively small horse tooth. It is not hard to do. There are lots of Horse teeth in the Peace River, most of which are large but there are lots of small ones. A reason that this gets interesting is that Equus .sp is the most common horse species in the Peace River and goes back maybe 1.5 million years (there is some debate on the exact boundary line for the Pleistocene). Before Equus there were a great diversity of horse species, all smaller animals with smaller teeth.

So whenever I find a small horse tooth: Is it Equus or is it an older smaller horse with smaller teeth? Here is a tooth from this week:

SmallHorseTooth.thumb.jpg.c63ae3cc1b73e31b88054c1546bfe2cc.jpg

 

So 26.5x11

Here are a couple of those smaller teeth from smaller horses:

Cormohipparion-ingenuum-4.jpg.42799760ffeb77129f0fcbee613e9e91.jpgNannippusP.thumb.jpg.7e0e77d53d41a3a4a8299d0f6601d87f.jpg

 

Here is a small Horse tooth found on the same day with Nannippus peninsulatus (above) that we agreed was still large enough to be Equus .sp

LargeHorseTooth.thumb.jpg.41d00bd974272f417b919672317e7da4.jpg

 

All of the above teeth are lower jaw teeth (either m3 or p2 which look exactly the same) .

So the question I have is: Is there a consensus on the minimal occlusal  size (length and width) of Equus .sp lower jaw teeth?

I have known examples of Equus (32x15) and Nannippus (19x9). Is a 26.5x11 tooth in the range of equus or not? All opinions and facts appreciated.

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siteseer

Hi Shellseeker,

 

You need to PM Fossillarry about this one.  As I recall, N. peninsulatus is one of the largest hipparion-type horses (and one of the last of that group as well) in terms of teeth perhaps overlapping the height of Equus but the teeth have less occlusal surface area than an Equus the same height. 

 

Jess

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Shellseeker
54 minutes ago, siteseer said:

Hi Shellseeker,

 

You need to PM Fossillarry about this one.  As I recall, N. peninsulatus is one of the largest hipparion-type horses (and one of the last of that group as well) in terms of teeth perhaps overlapping the height of Equus but the teeth have less occlusal surface area than an Equus the same height. 

 

Jess

Thanks Jess,  I think @fossillarry this is the way to PM.

Also the 1st smaller Horse tooth is a Cormohipparion ingenuum  from the UF Museum of Natural History.

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Harry Pristis

 

4 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

So I found a relatively small horse tooth. It is not hard to do. There are lots of Horse teeth in the Peace River, most of which are large but there are lots of small ones. A reason that this gets interesting is that Equus .sp is the most common horse species in the Peace River and goes back maybe 1.5 million years (there is some debate on the exact boundary line for the Pleistocene). Before Equus there were a great diversity of horse species, all smaller animals with smaller teeth.

So whenever I find a small horse tooth: Is it Equus or is it an older smaller horse with smaller teeth? Here is a tooth from this week:

 

 

So 26.5x11

Here are a couple of those smaller teeth from smaller horses:

 

Here is a small Horse tooth found on the same day with Nannippus peninsulatus (above) that we agreed was still large enough to be Equus .sp

 

All of the above teeth are lower jaw teeth (either m3 or p2 which look exactly the same) .

So the question I have is: Is there a consensus on the minimal occlusal  size (length and width) of Equus .sp lower jaw teeth?

I have known examples of Equus (32x15) and Nannippus (19x9). Is a 26.5x11 tooth in the range of equus or not? All opinions and facts appreciated.

 

You meant 2.5 Ma, not 1.5 Ma, didn't you?

 

My experience with smaller equus-like teeth, using Hulbert as my resource, is this:  Gross size of the tooth is not reliable to identify Equus.  There are, in all likelihood, multiple species of Equus in Florida.  Add to that sexual dimorphism and ontogenetic change (tooth wear) and you get a significant range in occlusal surface size.

 

After some research and multiple corrections from Hulbert, I accept that the great majority of the smaller horse teeth from the Peace River are Equus sp.  With just a little practice, the difference between p2 and m3 has become readily apparent.  (The tooth labeled  "D" is a p2, according to Hulbert.)

horse_unid_m3pair.thumb.JPG.8e72a8e012bc06003708740e668606b7.JPGhorse_pair_equus_A.thumb.JPG.968d0f2f0c1a7ec64522c76f978dc7bc.JPG" 

horse_pair_equus_C.JPG

horse_unid_D.JPG

horse_lower_measurements.JPG

horse_upper_measurements.JPG

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Peace river rat

Found a similar small tooth at Brownville on sunday.

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jessevanhout

i am really new to this but sence u guys are talking about a tooth is this a old tooth or no that i have i found it in a big lake under the bank in united states south dakota north east i thought it was cool so i picked it up the pop cap is just to show how big sorry no way to measure it sorry 

0514172314a.jpg

0514172312.jpg

0514172313.jpg

0514172314.jpg

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Harry Pristis

Jessevanhout . . . Your tooth appears to be a bovid (bison or cow) upper premolar.

 

 

bison_P2_M3_opposite.JPG

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Shellseeker
14 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

You meant 2.5 Ma, not 1.5 Ma, didn't you?

 

My experience with smaller equus-like teeth, using Hulbert as my resource, is this:  Gross size of the tooth is not reliable to identify Equus.  There are, in all likelihood, multiple species of Equus in Florida.  Add to that sexual dimorphism and ontogenetic change (tooth wear) and you get a significant range in occlusal surface size.

 

After some research and multiple corrections from Hulbert, I accept that the great majority of the smaller horse teeth from the Peace River are Equus sp.  With just a little practice, the difference between p2 and m3 has become readily apparent.  (The tooth labeled  "D" is a p2, according to Hulbert.)

 

Thanks Harry, for taking the time to put together a number of small Equus examples.  It certainly gives me something to think about. You are correct on 2.5 although at one time I was walking around saying 1.808. 

In the p2 versus m3 differentiation, it seems from this limited set that one possible m3 marker is this feature "centered" on the tooth.  True/Not True?

horse_unid_m3pair.thumb.JPG.8e72a8e012bc06003708740e668606b7Centered.jpg.a778d93d24f3e6754cff917ecf2c6d0a.jpg

You have made me think of a different question. For small lower horse teeth found in the Peace River, at what size should I question a designation of Equus? Richard was pretty quick to call the small m3 above Nannippus, although I can not see any differentiating factor beyond size. Is the width of 9mm a differentiator?

 

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Shellseeker

I will "tickle" this thread again. Just trying to keep track of very small equus teeth. Here is one my hunting budding found Thursday. I told him that it was equus.  I have a 'bounty" on high quality non-equus horse teeth from the Peace River with my friends who hunt there.

 

For TFF members, I am interested in small Equus teeth.  Please post a photo if you have a very small example.

 

IMG_5664txt.jpg

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