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My son, Sean, treated me to a trip at the famous Ernst Shark Tooth Hill Quarry. We spent a total of two full days digging and about an hour sifting but the wind was to strong to be productive. The dust there is like fine powder, didn't know the human ear could hold so much dust. The rest of the trip was fantastic, mild temps and calm wind. Everyone wants to find that elusive Meg. but not the case for us Texans. I did find a lower Hemipristis which are very uncommon at the site. Pictured are my finds of two days digging, lots of Isurus planus and one 2 1\2 l.hastalis also a whale and two dolphin ear bones. Found some smalls as well, one Squatina and numerous dog fish teeth. Salvaged several teeth that were in matrix, makes neat display. Some of my finds suffered on the jet flight back to Dallas so next time will bring better packing material. Pictured are four colorful teeth from the West private quarry that can be seen behind the picture of Sean and me. They are totally different in color and better preserved, was lucky enough to meet the co-owner of the quarry and he sold me a couple of teeth, would love to hunt that one. Would I do another trip to Bakersville, Calf. Absolutely in a heartbeat, the Meg. still waits for me but thankful for the teeth I and my son found.

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Grow Old Kicking And Screaming !!
"Don't Tread On Me"

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Oh my!! What wonderful finds and I really like your display. The four colored teeth are really lovely, aren't they? What is the scale for the last pic? Either that is a very tiny plant or a rather large tooth!! :)

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Nice finds!

Thanks for sharing your trip with us!

I hope to make it out there one day as well!

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26 minutes ago, jewelonly said:

Oh my!! What wonderful finds and I really like your display. The four colored teeth are really lovely, aren't they? What is the scale for the last pic? Either that is a very tiny plant or a rather large tooth!! :)

The tooth is 1 1\2 inches, Planus teeth aren't large, a 2 to 2 1\4 inch tooth is quite large.

Grow Old Kicking And Screaming !!
"Don't Tread On Me"

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Great report and pics! You found some great teeth. Beautiful colors. Thanks for sharing this with us. Hopefully some day I will get a chance to hunt there.

Dipleurawhisperer5.jpg

I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie.

 

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Nice to see you get out there, Tom.

Nice little haul there.  

Thanks for the report and pictures! 

Regards,

 

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

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23 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Nice to see you get out there, Tom.

Nice little haul there.  

Thanks for the report and pictures! 

Regards,

 

Thanks

Grow Old Kicking And Screaming !!
"Don't Tread On Me"

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Thanks for the site pics. Man those are some sweet teeth. ....I especially like seeing the hearing devices!!

 

Regards, Chris 

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On 5/18/2017 at 4:51 PM, Foshunter said:

My son, Sean, treated me to a trip at the famous Ernst Shark Tooth Hill Quarry. We spent a total of two full days digging and about an hour sifting but the wind was to strong to be productive. The dust there is like fine powder, didn't know the human ear could hold so much dust. The rest of the trip was fantastic, mild temps and calm wind. Everyone wants to find that elusive Meg. but not the case for us Texans. I did find a lower Hemipristis which are very uncommon at the site. Pictured are my finds of two days digging, lots of Isurus planus and one 2 1\2 l.hastalis also a whale and two dolphin ear bones. Found some smalls as well, one Squatina and numerous dog fish teeth. Salvaged several teeth that were in matrix, makes neat display. Some of my finds suffered on the jet flight back to Dallas so next time will bring better packing material. Pictured are four colorful teeth from the West private quarry that can be seen behind the picture of Sean and me. They are totally different in color and better preserved, was lucky enough to meet the co-owner of the quarry and he sold me a couple of teeth, would love to hunt that one. Would I do another trip to Bakersville, Calf. Absolutely in a heartbeat, the Meg. still waits for me but thankful for the teeth I and my son found.

 

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What happened to the pictures?

Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys."

Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough."

 

My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection

My favorite thread on TFF.

 

 

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On 5/18/2017 at 7:51 PM, Foshunter said:

My son, Sean, treated me to a trip at the famous Ernst Shark Tooth Hill Quarry. We spent a total of two full days digging and about an hour sifting but the wind was to strong to be productive. The dust there is like fine powder, didn't know the human ear could hold so much dust. The rest of the trip was fantastic, mild temps and calm wind. Everyone wants to find that elusive Meg. but not the case for us Texans. I did find a lower Hemipristis which are very uncommon at the site. Pictured are my finds of two days digging, lots of Isurus planus and one 2 1\2 l.hastalis also a whale and two dolphin ear bones. Found some smalls as well, one Squatina and numerous dog fish teeth. Salvaged several teeth that were in matrix, makes neat display. Some of my finds suffered on the jet flight back to Dallas so next time will bring better packing material. Pictured are four colorful teeth from the West private quarry that can be seen behind the picture of Sean and me. They are totally different in color and better preserved, was lucky enough to meet the co-owner of the quarry and he sold me a couple of teeth, would love to hunt that one. Would I do another trip to Bakersville, Calf. Absolutely in a heartbeat, the Meg. still waits for me but thankful for the teeth I and my son found.

 

 

 

Tom, 

Can you re-upload the pictures?

They seem to have gone missing from your post. :headscratch:

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

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On 5/19/2017 at 10:39 PM, Fossildude19 said:

 

Tom, 

Can you re-upload the pictures?

They seem to have gone missing from your post. :headscratch:

 

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Grow Old Kicking And Screaming !!
"Don't Tread On Me"

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Thank you, Tom. :) 

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

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  • 1 month later...

@Foshunter I've always wanted to try out Ernst. So the nice I. hastalis you have is actually C. hastalis. It has been theorized that Great White's and Mako's where C. hastalis. Here's some more info:

 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/

Do or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

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4 hours ago, Fossil-Hound said:

@Foshunter I've always wanted to try out Ernst. So the nice I. hastalis you have is actually C. hastalis. It has been theorized that Great White's and Mako's where C. hastalis. Here's some more info:

 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/

 

While the author of that article favors retaining one species name for the two primary shark tooth shapes in question--Carcharodon hastalis--not everybody agrees.

 

According to the author of that linked article, the researchers Purdy et al. (2001), Aguilera and Rodrigues de Aguilera (2004), Marsili (2008), Whitenack and Gottfried (2010), and Cione et al. (2012) concluded that "even after accounting for differences in tooth width between upper and lower teeth," two main tooth shapes persist in the geologic record, requiring two different species names.

 

The narrower-shaped shark tooth is the true Isurus hastalis (or, Cosmopolitodus hastalis "depending on one’s interpretation of lamnid evolution"); it's typically found in "early to early late Miocene deposits." The Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed Bed lies in the middle Miocene Round Mountain Silt of the Temblor Group, 15.9 to 15.2 million years old. So, according to the researchers listed above, Isurus hastalis would remain a vaild designation for those kinds of shark teeth found in the Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed. The broader-shaped shark teeth in question occur in latest Miocene to Pliocene deposits and can be referred to Isurus xiphodon (Purdy et al. 2001) and as Carcharodon plicatilis (Cione et al. 2012), "both species originally named by Agassiz in the mid-1800s."  

 

The references cited in the linked article:

 

Purdy, R., V. P. Schnieder, S. P. Applegate, J. H. McLellan, R. L. Meyer, and B. H. Slaughter. 2001. The Neogene sharks, rays, and bony fishes from Lee Creek Mine, Aurora, North Carolina. Geology and paleontology of the Lee Creek Mine, North Carolina, III. Smithsonian Contributions to Paleobiology 90:71-202.

 

Aguilera, O., and D. Rodrigues de Aguilera. 2004. Giant-toothed white sharks and wide-toothed mako (Lamnidae) from the Venezuela Neogene: their role in the Caribbean, shallow-water fish assemblage. Caribbean Journal of Science 40(3):368-382.

 

Marsili, S., 2008. Systematic, paleoecologic and paleobiogeographic analysis of the Plio–Pleistocene Mediterranean elasmobranch fauna. Atti Della Società Toscana Di Scienze Naturali Memorie Serie A 113:81-88.

 

Whitenack, L.B., and M.D. Gottfried. 2010. A morphometric approach for addressing tooth-based species delimitation in fossil mako sharks, Isurus (Elasmobranchii: Lamniformes). Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 30(1): 17-25.

 

Cione, A.L., D.A. Cabrera, and M.J. Barla. 2012. Oldest record of the Great White Shark (Lamnidae, Carcharodon; Miocene) in the Southern Atlantic. Geobios 45(2): 167–172.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Virgilian said:

 

 

According to the author of that linked article, the researchers Purdy et al. (2001), Aguilera and Rodrigues de Aguilera (2004), Marsili (2008), Whitenack and Gottfried (2010), and Cione et al. (2012) concluded that "even after accounting for differences in tooth width between upper and lower teeth," two main tooth shapes persist in the geologic record, requiring two different species names.

 

The narrower-shaped shark tooth is the true Isurus hastalis (or, Cosmopolitodus hastalis "depending on one’s interpretation of lamnid evolution"); it's typically found in "early to early late Miocene deposits." The Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed Bed lies in the middle Miocene Round Mountain Silt of the Temblor Group, 15.9 to 15.2 million years old. So, according to the researchers listed above, Isurus hastalis would remain a vaild designation for those kinds of shark teeth found in the Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed. The broader-shaped shark teeth in question occur in latest Miocene to Pliocene deposits and can be referred to Isurus xiphodon (Purdy et al. 2001) and as Carcharodon plicatilis (Cione et al. 2012), "both species originally named by Agassiz in the mid-1800s."  

 

 

 

 

If these are considered two different species, both would be in the genus Carcharodon. When Purdy was discussing the possibility of two species in 2001, he had the belief that modern great whites evolved from megalodon. That would have made C. hastilis unrelated. Today we know that is not true, modern great whites evolved from C. hastilis. If there are two species (broad and narrow) both are closely related to C. carcharias with one form directly evolving into C. carcharias.

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28 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

 

If these are considered two different species, both would be in the genus Carcharodon. When Purdy was discussing the possibility of two species in 2001, he had the belief that modern great whites evolved from megalodon. That would have made C. hastilis unrelated. Today we know that is not true, modern great whites evolved from C. hastilis. If there are two species (broad and narrow) both are closely related to C. carcharias with one form directly evolving into C. carcharias.

Yes but now Otodus is being considered as a candidate for Carcharodon. Modern Great White and Mako both belonged to Lamniformes. There seems to be a lot of churn on these subjects as there is no solid evidence from Purdy et. al.

Do or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

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16 minutes ago, Fossil-Hound said:

Yes but now Otodus is being considered as a candidate for Carcharodon.

 

You might be confusing Carcharodon with Carcharocles. Carcharocles is now considered a subgenus of Otodus by some researchers.

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5 hours ago, Al Dente said:

 

If these are considered two different species, both would be in the genus Carcharodon. When Purdy was discussing the possibility of two species in 2001, he had the belief that modern great whites evolved from megalodon. That would have made C. hastilis unrelated. Today we know that is not true, modern great whites evolved from C. hastilis. If there are two species (broad and narrow) both are closely related to C. carcharias with one form directly evolving into C. carcharias.

 

I just don't see any evidence yet that the alternate hypothesis (the configuration assigned to letter "B" in the linked article at https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/ ) is a "done deal," as it were. Michael D. Gottfried and Robert Ewan Fordyce, for example, continue to favor the traditional interpretation (the configuration assigned to letter "A" in the linked article) that the great white shark Carcharodon carcharias is more closely related to the extinct megalodon than it is to the mako sharks, genus Isurus.

 

My take is that Isurus hastalis remains valid for the middle Miocene Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed specimens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Virgilian said:

 

I just don't see any evidence yet that the alternate hypothesis (the configuration assigned to letter "B" in the linked article at https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/florida-vertebrate-fossils/species/carcharodon-hastalis/ ) is a "done deal," as it were. Michael D. Gottfried and Robert Ewan Fordyce, for example, continue to favor the traditional interpretation (the configuration assigned to letter "A" in the linked article) that the great white shark Carcharodon carcharias is more closely related to the extinct megalodon than it is to the mako sharks, genus Isurus.

 

My take is that Isurus hastalis remains valid for the middle Miocene Sharktooth Hill Bone Bed specimens.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That article is not a full review of the discussion of the proposed origins of the great white shark.  What you are not getting from the writer is that the vast majority of researchers (and longtime amateur collectors for that matter) consider the species hastalis the direct ancestor of Carcharodon carcharias.  The main reason for that is the large number of transitional teeth found in the Early Pliocene of California, Peru, and Chile.  You find teeth that are unserrated (hastalis), then teeth that are weakly-serrated (Carcharodon hubbelli), then teeth that are fully serrated (Carcharodon carcharias) in successive beds.  When you look at enough teeth, you get the idea that hastalis is just an unserrated-toothed great white shark.  The idea that C. carcharias and Carcharocles megaldon were closely-related is an old one that never really had any evidence to support it other than both had rather large to very large teeth that were serrated.  It was something that seemed obvious but not examined.  There have never been any proposed transitional teeth for megalpdon-carcharias.  In fact with the genus Carcharocles now considered by a growing number of researchers to be a subgenus or junior synonym of Otodus, even more taxonomic distance opens up between megalodon and carcharias.  Otodus dates back to the Early-Middle Paleocene while the ancestors of Carcharodon become murky going back through the Oligocene and Eocene - perhaps back to Isurolamna.

 

You'd have to read:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253767853_Tracing_the_ancestry_of_the_great_white_shark_Carcharodon_carcharias_using_morphometric_analyses_of_fossil_teeth

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253767853_Tracing_the_ancestry_of_the_great_white_shark_Carcharodon_carcharias_using_morphometric_analyses_of_fossil_teeth

 

And the one that started it all though it was more of an aside within a wider discussion (not sure it's available as a pdf):

 

Muizon, C. de, and T. J. DeVries. 1985. Geology and paleontology of late Cenozoic marine deposits in the Sacaco area (Peru). Geologische Rundschau 74:547–563.

 

Also, here is a Fossil Forum thread in which Boesse discusses the hastalis-carcharias transition in northern California:

 

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/24721-mako-to-great-white/#comment-270855

 

Also, read Ward and Bonavia (2001) for comments on Purdy et al. (2001):

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280316614_Additions_to_and_a_review_of_the_Miocene_Shark_and_Ray_fauna_of_Malta 

 

Jess

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On 6/30/2017 at 7:40 AM, Al Dente said:

 

You might be confusing Carcharodon with Carcharocles. Carcharocles is now considered a subgenus of Otodus by some researchers.

Roger that

Do or do not. There is no try. - Yoda

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