Mariopteris?

[Bguild]

Can anyone say what the carboniferous plant in the lower left corner is? The vein preservation is poor, but is this maybe Mariopteris? Found at Cory's Lane, Rhode Island

 

[Miocene_Mason]

From searching mariopteris, my amateur eye finds little difference.

[Fossildude19]

Mariopteris nervosa is known from the Rhode Island Formation. 

 

Flora list for Rhode Island Formation:

 

Rhode Island Formation Flora list.pdf

[doushantuo]

Mariopteris (d)phyllotaxis

(Corsin thesis)

[doushantuo]

M.acuta:

 

 

 

[doushantuo]

beneckei

 

[doushantuo]

I'll stop here,because I know full well the dangers of old taxonomy.

M robusta,carnosa,hirsuta,soubeirani,opulenta,micro-Sauveuri,pachyphylla,lobatifolia,nobilis,Bourozi,Jacquoti,muricata,latifolia :might all be revised

 

[doushantuo]

tenchov:

mariopterisbotanytenchov.pdf

[Bguild]

Now I'm thinking this could be Odontopteris reichana. Thoughts? 

 

http://archive.bgbm.org/bgbm/library/gutbier/Abb2 Odontopteris reichiana.htm

[Fossildude19]

Does look more similar to that, in my opinion. 

@fiddlehead    @paleoflor

[abyssunder]

Maybe this helps:

 

link to source

[Bguild]

Well after review of the Pteridospermopsida that are known to the Rhode Island Formation I couldn't find a closer match than Odontopteris cf. reichiana. To my amature eye it seemed to hit on just about everything (given the vein preservation isn't all that great). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[doushantuo]

Laveine,2016:

"It is concluded that the species O. minor, O. reichiana and O. minor-zeilleri are all conspecific with O. brardii. The diagnosis of the genus Odontopteris sensu stricto and that of its type species Odontopteris brardii are emended."

For a view of the use of cuticular analysis of O. species:I recommend Kerp/Krings,2003

No one here has yet mentioned the doubts of Doubinger,Langiaux and Daber about O.reichiana

[doushantuo]

The finer intercalatory veins were not met with by Heyer OR Weiss in their material.And that was in 1884

So ,it just might be that what you think is Mariopteris is the species figured in fig. 2 here

 

[doushantuo]

Mariopteris again:

[doushantuo]

This might be instructive(Rees,1993):

(Jurassic/Rhaetian)Sagenopteris,both leaves(laminae) nilssoniana

conclusion drawn  after extensive sampling!!!

"The occurrence of intermediate forms and the intimate association of entire-,undulating-, and lobed-margined leaflets provides strong
positive evidence for assigning them to the same species,despite the lack of cuticular information."

(italics mine)

Possible reason for this extreme case of polymorphism:photoperiod-related("ecological").

Also:position on frond(and of course this might be related)

[Bguild]

One of the main reasons I moved from thinking this was Mariopteris to Odontopteris reichiana was that the leaves of the specimen are concurrent. Mariopteris seems to have leaves alternating along either side of the pinnules.

[EMP]

1 hour ago, Bguild said:

One of the main reasons I moved from thinking this was Mariopteris to Odontopteris reichana was that the leaves of the specimen are concurrent. Mariopteris seems to have leaves alternating along either side of the pinnules.

 

It does appear to be concurrent like O. reichana, as well as having similar bifurcation of the veins on the leaves. I'd say O. reichana is a safe bet for now, but considering the metamorphism of the deposits and the similarity in pattern between O. reichana and Mariopteris sp. a solid ID is pretty hard to do. The concurrency of the leaves may just be due to deformation. 

 

@doushantuo, some of what you're posting is about the Monongahela and Dukard Groups of Pennsylvania, which is not stratigraphically equivalent to the Rhode Island Formation and was formed under different conditions. There are likely to be variations in leaf types, considering the Monongahela is a good five to twenty million years younger then the Rhode Island. I'd suggest finding literature on the Allegheny Group and the Conemaugh, which is more comparable age wise. 

[doushantuo]

I bow to someone with superior knowledge of Carboniferous phytogeography ,stratigraphy and paleo-ecology.

If anyone is offended by my hubris,I apologize deeply.

 

I'm not familiar with the Dukard group or reichana,but I take those to be typing errors .

Conemaugh flora,fairly recent floral lists in this one ,BTW

outtake:

 

 

 

[EMP]

3 hours ago, doushantuo said:

I bow to someone with superior knowledge of Carboniferous phytogeography ,stratigraphy and paleo-ecology.

If anyone is offended by my hubris,I apologize deeply.

 

I'm not familiar with the Dukard group or reichana,but I take those to be typing errors .

Conemaugh flora,fairly recent floral lists in this one ,BTW

outtake:

 

 

 

 

That report is good, but it's primary focus appears to be on conifers (Walchia sp. specifically) and their use as a tool to figure out paleoenvironments. 

 

I think this report (dated, but useful), is more of a "list" of floras and their descriptions of the Conemaugh:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=3ZQPAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA145&lpg=PA145&dq=allegheny+group+flora+fossils&source=bl&ots=B-gRdvd2Jf&sig=vN9D_JKK-V0n2FHYapkhA-Psqmc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwia36z4_b3UAhWBeD4KHUnYAJ4Q6AEIOzAF#v=onepage&q=allegheny group flora fossils&f=false

 

I found this which is still partial, but gives a decent run down on the flora of the Rhode Island Formation:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=R9rNRTF2XxsC&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=rhode+island+formation+fossils&source=bl&ots=khNO29B65L&sig=ytsm5pMOLvr8dUxI0dhQFOWlKTY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjo4fe9_73UAhXLMj4KHenuA-YQ6AEIfDAP#v=onepage&q=rhode island formation fossils&f=false

 

A good book that I managed to snag is called "Fossil Plants of the Eastern PA Anthracite Coal Fields". It includes a run down of most of the plant species, descriptions, pictures of them, and geologic maps and stratigraphy of the area. A useful tool for this since the Llewellyn Formation is roughly in the same time zone as the Rhode Island Formation.