Vaccinites vesiculosus?

[FranzBernhard]

Hello!

 

I am currently looking for the rudists of the Upper Cretaceous Gosau basin of Kainach, Styria, Austria, around St. Bartholomae. So far, I have found one determinable specimen. I think, it could be Vaccinites vesiculosus (Woodward 1855). From this area, beside other rudists, Hippurites styriacus Hilber 1902, Hippurites carinthiacus Redlich 1899 and Hippirutes oppeli santoniensis Kühn 1954 are described in the literature, which seem to be all synonyms of V. vesiculosus, according to various sources.

 

The first photo shows the outer surface of the specimen, which is not very distinctive. Height of the specimen is 13 cm, maximum diameter about 7 cm. A saw cut is indicated by a green arrow. The second picture shows the two polished, cut surfaces of the "rock". The diamater of the large rudist is 7 cm, it seems to be intergrown with a Radiolites sp. and there is also a small Hippurites sp. nearby. The third picture is an enlargement of the V. vesiculosus in question.

 

What do you think, could my determination as V. v. be correct?

 

Thank you very much for your help!
Franz Bernhard

Picture 2

[FranzBernhard]

Picture 3

[JohnBrewer]

@TqB might be able to help

And welcome to the forum!

[abyssunder]

I think Franz Bernhard is an older member of TFF... It's just a name and location  coincidence, or maybe Forum Name change from Bernhard ?

[FranzBernhard]

I lost the access to my usual email-adress, so a new registration with a new email-adress was neccessary...

Franz Bernhard

[doushantuo]

might be useful

[doushantuo]

might be fun to have

[FranzBernhard]

doushantou,

thank you very much!

 

I have the paper of Kaumanns and also that of Zittel (But did not have a close look at the last one).

 

Hmm, V. dilatatus (Defrance 1821) is also very similar to V. vesiculosus and V. oppeli santoniensis, thanks for the hint! They are all (still) regarded as distinct species.

 

What to you think?

 

Franz Bernhard

[Fossildude19]

5 hours ago, FranzBernhard said:

I lost the access to my usual email-adress, so a new registration with a new email-adress was neccessary...

Franz Bernhard

 

Franz, 

I've merged your old account with the new one.  

Let me know if you have any issues. 

Regards, 

Tim

[FranzBernhard]

Tim,

thank you very much for merging my accounts! Everything is ok!

Thanks!
Franz Bernhard

[abyssunder]

It's really hard to identify to the species level without a strong revision of the late Cretaceous rudist of your region. Originally designated names could be outdated or could be wrong. I propose the Pseudovaccinites sp. labeling as a temporal assign, although I'm not a specialist in this domain.

 

You made a good work sectioning transversely the lower valve of the rudist in question, Frantz. That is necessary for a correct ID.

 

[FranzBernhard]

abyssunder,

thank you very much for your comment! Yes, the situation is really confusing. Attached there is a list of the rudist species mentioned from the Gosau basin of Kainach, Styria, Austria (Santon-Campan) in various local literature. And two excerpts from recent papers concerning this subject in Croatia with quite similar rudists. Confusing, indeed!

 

Btw, several authors state, that the rudist faunas of Kainach (Styria) and Wietersdorf (Carinthia) has closer similarities to the rudist faunas of southeast Europe than to the faunas of the inneralpine Gosau basins (eg. Rußbach, Gams, Brandenberg etc.).

 

How can I distinguish between genus Vaccinites and genus Pseudovaccinites? Have not found anything usefull yet.

 

Thanks again!
Franz Bernhard

[doushantuo]

still working on it.

Actually,it is more complicated than i thought

 

[doushantuo]

another(?)/analogous(?)biometrical method

[doushantuo]

the resulting PCA shows why the taxonomy is 

euh

you know

[doushantuo]

prepare yourself for some mediocre rudist pix and reasonable line drawings

lavaR_t al.pdf

[Ludwigia]

Maybe you should just call it Vaccinates sp. and leave it at that. At least you know that that's correct. Like Abyssunder indicates, these Rudists need a revision. It's probably just as confusing for the "experts".

[doushantuo]

schumanuppervalvaccinirudistyer-19-6-9-0903-5.pdf

The annoyingly paywalled Lethaia(2008) piece by Pons might help,in the sense that it's about the ultrastructure /biomineralization ,which might be more

informative for taxonomy

[FranzBernhard]

doushantou,

thank you very much for your efforts, I appreciate them greatly!

 

Ludwigia,

yes, I can call them Vaccinites sp. But I am interested in oppinions if I can go deeper. For example, I like the concept of "species groups" of Moro. But I don´t know if that is something "real". However, it looks possibly helpfull.

 

Thanks to all!
Franz Bernhard

[FranzBernhard]

Just to show off another V.v. from the same area, found 8. July 2017. Its only a fragment, but its better preserved then the first one. Diameter about 7.5 cm, arrows point to L- and P1-pillar on the weathered surface.

Franz Bernhard

[abyssunder]

Maybe this helps: D. Sanders, J. M.  Pons, E. Caus. 2004. Shallow-water limestone clasts in a Campanian deep-water debrite (Krappfeld, Central Alps, Austria): implications for carbonate platform history. Annalen des Naturhistorischen Museums in Wien 106 A:139–165

 

[FranzBernhard]

Thank you very much, abyssunder,

I have this ref. already.

Yes, it is practically the same geological situation and age here in St. Bartholomä.

In the meantime, I have found all the species also known from Krappfeld (H. colliciatus, H. heritschi (= H. nabresinensis), V. ultimus (= V. alpinus)) myself here in St. Bartholomä.

Thanks again!
Franz Bernhard

[Ludwigia]

And what about Hippurites (Batolites) tirolicus? How's the status on that these days?

[FranzBernhard]

Good question, Ludwigia!

 

According to the database of Steuber, H. tirolicus is valid:

http://www.paleotax.de/rudists/s129.htm

 

But it was never mentioned from Krappfeld gosau in Carinthia or Kainach gosau in Styria.

 

Btw, here is a summary of my investigations in the St. Bartholomä-Formation of the Kainach Gosau (in german):

https://franzbernhard.lima-city.de/SanktBartholomae.html

 

Franz Bernhard

[abyssunder]

On 6/23/2017 at 2:10 PM, FranzBernhard said:

How can I distinguish between genus Vaccinites and genus Pseudovaccinites? Have not found anything usefull yet.

 

 

The answer to your question is here:

 

 

excerpt from L. T. García. 2015. Rudistas (Hippuritida, Bivalvia) del Cenomaniense-Coniaciense (Cretácico superior) del Pirineo meridional-central. Paleontología y bioestratigrafía. Tesis Doctoral.