Devonian Goniatite. ID requested

[Ludwigia]

This cute little(7mm.) pyritized goniatite was recently found at the Hungry Hollow north pit in Arkona, Ontario. Stratigraphy is Devonian, Givetian, Arkona Shale. The sutures are quite different than the ones on the Tornoceras which can be found there in abundance. Never seen anything like this one there before, though. I'm having trouble tracking it down and am hoping that someone in the know might recognize it and be able to tell me what it's called.

 

 

[Northern Sharks]

@middevonian Darrell, your help is needed

[piranha]

This paper might be useful.  I sent two versions, one has an extra set of hi-res figures.

 

 

House, M.R. (1965)

A study in the Tornoceratidae: the succession of Tornoceras and related genera in the North American Devonian.

Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences, 250:79-130

 

[Fossildude19]

       

Some possible candidates:

 

 

         

Plates from Devonian Paleontology of New York Linsley.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ludwigia]

2 hours ago, piranha said:

This paper might be useful.  I sent two versions, one has an extra set of hi-res figures.

 

 

House, M.R. (1965)

A study in the Tornoceratidae: the succession of Tornoceras and related genera in the North American Devonian.

Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B: Biological Sciences, 250:79-130

 

Thanks, Scott. Just transferred them to my databank. However, I'm pretty sure that this is not a Tornoceras.

 

1 hour ago, Fossildude19 said:

       

Some possible candidates:

 

 

         

Plates from Devonian Paleontology of New York Linsley.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions, Tim.

 

[Ludwigia]

I'm having 2 problems. The first is that the suture lines look almost ammonitic, certainly not your typical goniatite type, or even ceratititic and I haven't yet found a goniatite with these types of sutures in my data or in the internet. The second is that , although it is somewhat involute, it is certainly not as strongly involute as any Tornoceras species that I've seen.

[Ludwigia]

I've managed to get a couple of better close-ups of the sutures if this is of any help. The closest I've come up with so far is Perrinites, but that genus is from the Permocarbon, a time where the goniatites began to develop more ammonitic sutures. I'm starting to wonder now if someone dropped it at the pit

 

 

[Fossil-Hound]

Very nice patterns @Ludwigia

[doushantuo]

there are pyritized goniatite levels in the Devonian(Frasnian) of ,e.g.Poland

 

[doushantuo]

generally speaking,IMHO,a person could /would do well to acquaint him-/herself with the output of Kroger,Klug and Korn .

Their collecive efforts (Goniatite revisions) have been many

edit: bit of a curious link,but in my case it got me this

 

one of the more relevant and /or useful chapters might be:

Chapter 4 • GONIAT – The Current State of the Paleontological Database
System on Paleozoic Ammonoids
Jürgen Kullmann
1 Introduction .............................................................................................. 86
2 Scope of the Database System GONIAT ................................................ 87
3 Data Model ............................................................................................... 88
4 Applications .............................................................................................. 90
5 Problems and Limitations ....................................................................... 92
6 Future Aspects .......................................................................................... 92
7 Summary ................................................................................................... 95
Acknowledgments ............................................................................................ 95
References .........................................................................................................

[Kane]

11 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

I've managed to get a couple of better close-ups of the sutures if this is of any help. The closest I've come up with so far is Perrinites, but that genus is from the Permocarbon, a time where the goniatites began to develop more ammonitic sutures. I'm starting to wonder now if someone dropped it at the pit

 

 

 

Hm... I don't see it listed in Stumm and Wright's checklist, but there have been a lot more species found there since that was published over 50 years ago. These "jigsaw" pattern sutures are quite something, though. Was that the one pulled from the Arkona mud shale, or was it up river at the Widder? It doesn't show up on the UMMP database either. If this one is undescribed at this site, that would be exciting!

[Ludwigia]

11 minutes ago, Kane said:

 

Hm... I don't see it listed in Stumm and Wright's checklist, but there have been a lot more species found there since that was published over 50 years ago. These "jigsaw" pattern sutures are quite something, though. Was that the one pulled from the Arkona mud shale, or was it up river at the Widder? It doesn't show up on the UMMP database either. If this one is undescribed at this site, that would be exciting!

 

If I remember correctly, it was among the things you gave me, so I guess you must have picked it up from the Arkona Shale while on hands and knees at the north pit. Do you remember? Or were you also scanning the ground up the river and in the south pit?

 

 

7 hours ago, doushantuo said:

generally speaking,IMHO,a person could /would do well to acquaint him-/herself with the output of Kroger,Klug and Korn .

Their collecive efforts (Goniatite revisions) have been many

edit: bit of a curious link,but in my case it got me this

 

one of the more relevant and /or useful chapters might be:

Chapter 4 • GONIAT – The Current State of the Paleontological Database
System on Paleozoic Ammonoids
Jürgen Kullmann
1 Introduction .............................................................................................. 86
2 Scope of the Database System GONIAT ................................................ 87
3 Data Model ............................................................................................... 88
4 Applications .............................................................................................. 90
5 Problems and Limitations ....................................................................... 92
6 Future Aspects .......................................................................................... 92
7 Summary ................................................................................................... 95
Acknowledgments ............................................................................................ 95
References .........................................................................................................

 

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've already exhausted that one.

 

[doushantuo]

Nothing like it in Mike House's thesis either 

[Kane]

Since it was matrix-free, then I probably did pick it up in the Arkona mud. I just needed to rule out that it didn't come from that goniatite layer we found in the Widder. In its initial state, I just thought it was another Torno! I didn't pick up any goniatites in the south pit (those generally congregate at the base of the clay hills we didn't venture to), and any of them pulled out of the Widder upriver were embedded in matrix. By process of elimination, it has to be north pit.  

 

I think this mystery more than makes up for the disappointment over that Greenops, for sure. 

 

We might have to investigate the biota of any equivalent strata in NY, although there is something particularly unique about the Arkona given its taphonomy and deposition as a real muddy and stormy formation with a lot of reworking.

[doushantuo]

"We might have to investigate the biota of any equivalent strata in NY, although there is something particularly unique about the Arkona given its taphonomy and deposition as a real muddy and stormy formation with a lot of reworking."

Any old excuse,huh?

Ironically enough:"non peer-reviewed"

Minor threadjacking here,it's just a common Devonian cephalopod

 

[Ludwigia]

1 hour ago, Kane said:

Since it was matrix-free, then I probably did pick it up in the Arkona mud. I just needed to rule out that it didn't come from that goniatite layer we found in the Widder. In its initial state, I just thought it was another Torno! I didn't pick up any goniatites in the south pit (those generally congregate at the base of the clay hills we didn't venture to), and any of them pulled out of the Widder upriver were embedded in matrix. By process of elimination, it has to be north pit.  

 

I think this mystery more than makes up for the disappointment over that Greenops, for sure. 

 

We might have to investigate the biota of any equivalent strata in NY, although there is something particularly unique about the Arkona given its taphonomy and deposition as a real muddy and stormy formation with a lot of reworking.

 

 

Well that narrows things down a bit. I sorted all of the goniatites that we both found into one pile before I went home and didn't pay much attention to which were mine and which yours, so it could also be that it was one of mine, although I'm pretty sure that it came from you. At least we now know that it's from the north pit, since that was also the only place where I scavenged the ground. If, as you say, the Arkona is a reworked formation, then it could be possible that younger biota can be found in the debris, right? I've already sent off an ID request to Bill Hessin but haven't heard back from him yet. Could you recommend someone at the ROM that I could contact?

[Ludwigia]

1 hour ago, doushantuo said:

"We might have to investigate the biota of any equivalent strata in NY, although there is something particularly unique about the Arkona given its taphonomy and deposition as a real muddy and stormy formation with a lot of reworking."

Any old excuse,huh?

Ironically enough:"non peer-reviewed"

Minor threadjacking here,it's just a common Devonian cephalopod

 

 

I find that a bit off base, but thanks anyway.

[Kane]

7 minutes ago, Ludwigia said:

 

 

Well that narrows things down a bit. I sorted all of the goniatites that we both found into one pile before I went home and didn't pay much attention to which were mine and which yours, so it could also be that it was one of mine, although I'm pretty sure that it came from you. At least we now know that it's from the north pit, since that was also the only place where I scavenged the ground. If, as you say, the Arkona is a reworked formation, then it could be possible that younger biota can be found in the debris, right? I've already sent off an ID request to Bill Hessin but haven't heard back from him yet. Could you recommend someone at the ROM that I could contact?

I hope you hear back from Hessin. 

 

Although the Arkona was reworked a bit (at the time), we could probably rule out the younger formation (Hungry Hollow member) as I don't think the Goniatites appear in there, or if they do they wouldn't preserve in this way.

 

Sadly, the ROM isn't as big on invertebrate fossils. At best, they have a "walk-in clinic." 

[Ludwigia]

18 minutes ago, Kane said:

I hope you hear back from Hessin. 

 

Although the Arkona was reworked a bit (at the time), we could probably rule out the younger formation (Hungry Hollow member) as I don't think the Goniatites appear in there, or if they do they wouldn't preserve in this way.

 

Sadly, the ROM isn't as big on invertebrate fossils. At best, they have a "walk-in clinic." 

 

Ok. Well, I might just give it a shot over the website anyway if I don't hear back from Bill soon. Sometimes it takes a while before he answers since he's often scrambling around in the wilderness.

[Al Dente]

If this were my fossil I would send some photos to a Paleozoic ammonoid expert to get his or her opinion. To me the sutures look too complex to be Devonian but the preservation looks the same as the goniatites found there.

[GerryK]

    There is a problem with your specimen. First, your specimen is not a goniatite because the sutures are not goniatitic. The specimen looks like it has an ammonitic suture. There are no ammonoids in the Middle Devonian in the Devonian world with a ammonitic suture. The Middle Devonian ammonoids only have goniatitic sutures. Your specimen has to be a dropped specimen.

[FossilDAWG]

I've gone through a couple dozen papers on Middle Devonian ammonoids looking for anything with an ammonitic suture, and come up empty.  Everything I have seen is a goniatite.  Is there any chance that this tiny specimen is actually from some Mesozoic European site and got stuck in a fold of a collecting bag?

 

Don

[Kane]

25 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

I've gone through a couple dozen papers on Middle Devonian ammonoids looking for anything with an ammonitic suture, and come up empty.  Everything I have seen is a goniatite.  Is there any chance that this tiny specimen is actually from some Mesozoic European site and got stuck in a fold of a collecting bag?

 

Don

Hm. I do recall a good European collecting there recently.  

 

Thanks for looking into this, Don. Unless by some freak chance I can locate a second specimen, perhaps Ockham's Razor is the conditional answer at this point. I'll still keep the candle of hope lit in the very remote chance that this is a precocious newcomer to the Devonian  

[Guest11596]

22 hours ago, Northern Sharks said:

@middevonian Darrell, your help is needed

Aside from the obvious issues with morphology, preservation seems off for either the Arkona or Widder Formation. When also taking into consideration the uncertainty of who collected the specimen, at what locality and how it was collected I think it would be difficult to make a strong case for it being from the area.

[doushantuo]

aside from all of the above: i've noticed pyritized paleozoic cephalopods(e.g. Nehden,Alden Shale,NY,and the Poland example) tend to be concentrated in layers.

Member Kevin H.  might even have (been) investigat(/-ing)/ed such a layer in Belgium recently.

As reported summarily by Sue Gantley(1979/Proc Ussher soc)(F2d/Assises de Frasne(Frasnian(obviously)

Although Kev probably hadn't read that one