Phlange?

[Hyracotherium]

Hi - I am new here and found this on the bank of the Red Deer River today.

 

I have pulled elk and bison bones out in the same area - this looks older to me.

 

Can anyone tell me anything about it?

[hxmendoza]

Looks like a mid-caudal vertebral centrum from a Thescelosaurus to me.

[Hyracotherium]

Thanks for the quick response!

[hxmendoza]

29 minutes ago, Hyracotherium said:

Thanks for the quick response!

 

You're very welcome!

[Miocene_Mason]

Nice find!

[Spinosaurus]

nice vertebra

[Max-fossils]

Sorry to ruin the party, but I wouldn't write down Thescelosaurus just yet... 

I agree that it looks a lot like a caudal vertebra (tail vertebra) of something, but whether it's from Thescelosaurus I don't know. 

 

Here are some pics of a caudal Thescelosaurus vertebra I picked up from Google:

 

To me, the shapes don't seem to match much. 

 

Of course, I might be wrong. If someone can tell me if (and how) I'm wrong, I'd appreciate it much.

 

@Troodon and @LordTrilobite know a lot about dinosaur fossils, they will surely be able to give a positive ID.

 

Nonetheless, this is a very cool find, congrats!

 

Best regards,

 

Max

[LordTrilobite]

I don't have any experience with Thescelosaurus unfortunately. So I dunno.

[Max-fossils]

3 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

I don't have any experience with Thescelosaurus unfortunately. So I dunno.

Oops 

Sorry

[Chase B.]

Dear Hyracotherium, 

 

What I would say is that it'd be best to assign the vertebral centrum you've got there to dinosauria indet. It's important to note that without the various processes found on dinosaur vertebrae present on your specimen (due to erosion), a precise identification isn't really possible unfortunately. However, if you could submit photos of the specimen in question in both side views (lateral and medial views), a more specific identification may be possible (i.e., to a family of dinosaurs). Any more stratigraphic description (i.e., the color of the sediment it was retrieved from, the description of any rock or sediment that was still attached when you found the fossil) will also be of help.

 

 

Regards,
 

Chase

[hxmendoza]

2 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

Sorry to ruin the party, but I wouldn't write down Thescelosaurus just yet... 

I agree that it looks a lot like a caudal vertebra (tail vertebra) of something, but whether it's from Thescelosaurus I don't know. 

 

Here are some pics of a caudal Thescelosaurus vertebra I picked up from Google:

 

To me, the shapes don't seem to match much. 

 

Of course, I might be wrong. If someone can tell me if (and how) I'm wrong, I'd appreciate it much.

 

@Troodon and @LordTrilobite know a lot about dinosaur fossils, they will surely be able to give a positive ID.

 

Nonetheless, this is a very cool find, congrats!

 

Best regards,

 

Max

 

Troodon and Lord Trilobite aren't the only people with strong knowledge of dinosaur fossils. I've been collecting dinosaur fossils and prepping at the Denver museum paleo lab for over 20 years. Has this forum become that Troodon dependent, that his opinion is the one true answer? I think others deserve a chance in here too. At the very least you gave Lord-Trilobite some credit. 

 

I also have access to both the Jonathan and Bert Thescelosaurus skeletons in the collection of the Rocky Mountain Dinosaur Resource Center. I'm down there helping identify fossils for and with them several times a year. So I've gotten a pretty good look at the bones of those individuals.

 

Anyway, back to the vertebra in question.

 

The two most useful of Hyracotherium's pictures, are unfortunately a bit dark and taken obliquely. I've brightened them up, and cropped them. I've place arrows showing the same lateral ridge that your Google picture has. My Judith River Formation caudal vertebra has the same lateral ridge. Hell Creek Formation Thescelosaurus caudals show the same characteristic. This lateral ridge can vary in prominence depending on where the centrum is located in the tail. As I said before, this is a mid-caudal vertebra centrum.

 

Below are Hyracotherium's enhanced photos showing the lateral ridge much more clearly.

 

I've also attached a photo of my museum research grade cast of a complete mid-caudal vertebra that would be a bit more anterior in location on the tail. 

 

[ynot]

3 minutes ago, hxmendoza said:

Troodon and Lord Trilobite aren't the only people with strong knowledge of dinosaur fossils.

It is just that they are more predominant posters and therefor have a more visible presence on the forum.

I will try to remember to flag You for any questions about dinos in the future!

[Hyracotherium]

Thanks for cleaning up my pictures and annotating the important features.

 

I will be sure to take better pics next time. 

 

As for the source material - I am not sure. It was on a bed of black shale just above the high water mark. I think it was moved there in the high flow a couple weeks ago. 

 

I went up stream looking for more but, no luck.

 

 

[Max-fossils]

14 hours ago, hxmendoza said:

 

Troodon and Lord Trilobite aren't the only people with strong knowledge of dinosaur fossils. I've been collecting dinosaur fossils and prepping at the Denver museum paleo lab for over 20 years. Has this forum become that Troodon dependent, that his opinion is the one true answer? I think others deserve a chance in here too. At the very least you gave Lord-Trilobite some credit. 

 

I also have access to both the Jonathan and Bert Thescelosaurus skeletons in the collection of the Rocky Mountain Dinosaur Resource Center. I'm down there helping identify fossils for and with them several times a year. So I've gotten a pretty good look at the bones of those individuals.

 

Anyway, back to the vertebra in question.

 

The two most useful of Hyracotherium's pictures, are unfortunately a bit dark and taken obliquely. I've brightened them up, and cropped them. I've place arrows showing the same lateral ridge that your Google picture has. My Judith River Formation caudal vertebra has the same lateral ridge. Hell Creek Formation Thescelosaurus caudals show the same characteristic. This lateral ridge can vary in prominence depending on where the centrum is located in the tail. As I said before, this is a mid-caudal vertebra centrum.

 

Below are Hyracotherium's enhanced photos showing the lateral ridge much more clearly.

 

I've also attached a photo of my museum research grade cast of a complete mid-caudal vertebra that would be a bit more anterior in location on the tail. 

 

Alright, your last pictures/arguments convinced me. The reason I said I wasn't sure before is because with the Thescelosaurus pics you posted before, as the bones were half in matrix, shapes couldn't really be distinguishable, as there could be more bone beneath the matrix. Plus, that picture was very blurry, and details like this one can't be seen. But with the loose vertebra here, I can clearly see it now.

 

On the topic of Troodon and Lord Trilobite being good members, I just tagged these two as I personally know that they have a lot of experience with dinosaur fossils. I didn't know you before (maybe I've seen your username once or twice, but definitely not often), and therefore had no idea that you were also very experienced in the subject. I'm also sure that there are many other TFF members that know a great deal on the subject, but they don't often share their expertise, and therefore not many members know about them. Troodon and Lord Trilobite are, like Tony stated, very active members, and often give share their knowledge in a thorough way. That's why many members know that they can often count on them. Basically, like many others probably do, I tagged those two because of good personal experience with them.

Also, when giving a specific ID for something, like in this case, it's always better to give reasons for your answer, like you did right now, such as highlighting similar features. At first, when you said "it's this...", as you gave no reasons for it, I just thought that it could have been a wild guess. 

 

But now I know that you are also very experienced, and I will tag you next time too 

 

Best regards,

 

Max

[-Andy-]

@hxmendoza gets a shout-out from me too. He's also been a great help to other members and I. Quite a few of my fossils, especially raptor and theropod teeth were identified by him.

 

His knowledge on dinosaur fossils is remarkable, and he is the best expert I know regarding dinosaur claws.

[hxmendoza]

31 minutes ago, -Andy- said:

@hxmendoza gets a shout-out from me too. He's also been a great help to other members and I. Quite a few of my fossils, especially raptor and theropod teeth were identified by him.

 

His knowledge on dinosaur fossils is remarkable, and he is the best expert I know regarding dinosaur claws.

 

Thanks Andy. Happy to help.

[Chase B.]

Dear all, 

 

Though convincing arguments have been made for assignment of the specimen to Ornithopoda indet. or even Thescelosauridae indet., I would again caution against any assignment of a single vertebral centrum to a specific genus. Scientifically, it is impossible to assign the centrum to Thescelosaurus, as no autopomorphies are known for Thescelosaurus from the caudal vertebrae (e.g., Boyd et al., 2009). Additionally, as multiple different thescelosaurid taxa are known from the several different Cretaceous units that outcrop along the Red Deer River, the centrum could belong to any one of several thescelosaurid taxa. In fact, the centrum could also been that of other species of ornithischian, including being the partial vertebra of a juvenile hadrosaurid. I would thus suggest that Ornithischia indet. is the best label for the specimen. 

 

Regards,

 

Chase 

 

References. 

 

Boyd CA, Brown CM, Scheetz RD, and Clarke JA. 2009. Taxonomic revision of the basal neornithischian taxa Thescelosaurus and Bugenasaura. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 29:758–770.

 

 

[hxmendoza]

4 hours ago, Chase B. said:

Dear all, 

 

Though convincing arguments have been made for assignment of the specimen to Ornithopoda indet. or even Thescelosauridae indet., I would again caution against any assignment of a single vertebral centrum to a specific genus. Scientifically, it is impossible to assign the centrum to Thescelosaurus, as no autopomorphies are known for Thescelosaurus from the caudal vertebrae (e.g., Boyd et al., 2009). Additionally, as multiple different thescelosaurid taxa are known from the several different Cretaceous units that outcrop along the Red Deer River, the centrum could belong to any one of several thescelosaurid taxa. In fact, the centrum could also been that of other species of ornithischian, including being the partial vertebra of a juvenile hadrosaurid. I would thus suggest that Ornithischia indet. is the best label for the specimen. 

 

Regards,

 

Chase 

 

References. 

 

Boyd CA, Brown CM, Scheetz RD, and Clarke JA. 2009. Taxonomic revision of the basal neornithischian taxa Thescelosaurus and Bugenasaura. Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology 29:758–770.

 

 

 

I said Thescelosaur as a general ID.

I didn't give a species or genus.

Though a couple other people I've checked with also support it being a Thescelosaur. 

 

I guess I should clarify myself a little better. So thank you for bringing that to my attention Chase. (P.S. I like your blog!)

 

It should be:

Thescelosaurinae sp. indet. 

 

I should note however, that there are definitely no hadrosaurs that have caudal centrum that look anything like that. They are more shortened anteriorly to posteriorly, and never get that elongated clear through to the most distal vertebrae. 

 

 

[Chase B.]

Dear @hxmendoza,

 

Thanks for the clarification. In regards to your comment on the vertebrae of hadrosaurids, I have seen such elongated caudal vertebrae in hadrosaur specimens I have examined (especially the caudalmost vertebrae). Note the vertebrae at the end of the tail in the video above (at 38 seconds). These indeed have similar proportions to the centrum in question. Additionally, note again that Thescelosauridae (=Parksosauridae) lack any diagnostic features on the vertebrae (e.g., Boyd, 2015), so even assignment to Thescelosaurinae or Thescelosauridae (=Parksosauridae) should be taken as very tentative. 

 

Regards, 

 

Chase

 

References. 

 

Boyd CA. 2015. The systematic relationships and biogeographic history of ornithischian dinosaurs. PeerJ 3:e1523. 

[doushantuo]

Chase/HMendoza, I have a very straightforward question: is Galton's 1974 JOP piece outdated or not?

[westcoast]

I love a good technical paleontological debate by experts. 

[hxmendoza]

1 hour ago, Chase B. said:

Dear @hxmendoza,

 

Thanks for the clarification. In regards to your comment on the vertebrae of hadrosaurids, I have seen such elongated caudal vertebrae in hadrosaur specimens I have examined (especially the caudalmost vertebrae). Note the vertebrae at the end of the tail in the video above (at 38 seconds). These indeed have similar proportions to the centrum in question. Additionally, note again that Thescelosauridae (=Parksosauridae) lack any diagnostic features on the vertebrae (e.g., Boyd, 2015), so even assignment to Thescelosaurinae or Thescelosauridae (=Parksosauridae) should be taken as very tentative. 

 

Regards, 

 

Chase

 

References. 

 

Boyd CA. 2015. The systematic relationships and biogeographic history of ornithischian dinosaurs. PeerJ 3:e1523. 

 

 

Chase, I haven't seen Boyd's paper. So thank you for letting me know about it. I'll read it.

 

I can see what you mean about the elongation of the distal-most caudal vertebrae in the Hadrosaur tails. I still disagree with the possibility that this may be one though. My reasoning is this; those distal-most vertebrae appear to be very small. About an inch in length on average on Hadrosaur tails. Though I grant that it's all relative to the overall size of the animal. But the main differentiation for me is that on the submitted caudal in question, the remnant attachment points of the neural arch are longer relative to the overall length of the centrum than they are on Hadrosaur distal vertebrae. There is definitely a shortened neural arch on the Hadrosaur vertebrae compared to this centrum's neural arch remnants. 

 

I defer to your opinion on tentatively referring the centrum to Thescelosauridae. 

But for now I will stick to just that. 

Tentative referral to Thescelosauridae sp. indeterminate. 

 

[Chase B.]

Dear @hxmendoza,

 

Sorry, I should have clarified regarding my point on the caudal vertebrae of hadrosaurids. All I meant to illustrate was the similarity of the centrum with those of other types of ornithischians. Nodosaurid caudals may have been a better example for what I was trying to say (check out those from the holotype of Niobrarasaurus if you're interested in their morphology, and let me know if you need a link for this). 

 

 

Regards, 

 

Chase

@doushantuo,

 

In some ways, yes. See this paper for more:

 

Boyd CA. 2015. The systematic relationships and biogeographic history of ornithischian dinosaurs. PeerJ 3:e1523.  

 

[hxmendoza]

14 minutes ago, Chase B. said:

Dear @hxmendoza,

 

Sorry, I should have clarified regarding my point on the caudal vertebrae of hadrosaurids. All I meant to illustrate was the similarity of the centrum with those of other types of ornithischians. Nodosaurid caudals may have been a better example for what I was trying to say (check out those from the holotype of Niobrarasaurus if you're interested in their morphology, and let me know if you need a link for this). 

 

 

Regards, 

 

Chase

@doushantuo,

 

In some ways, yes. See this paper for more:

 

Boyd CA. 2015. The systematic relationships and biogeographic history of ornithischian dinosaurs. PeerJ 3:e1523.  

 

•  

 

Thanks Chase. I went and looked at the Niobrara caudal pics. I'm not sold on that, but I can appreciate your point. I think some very good points have been brought up on both sides and it's been a useful and healthy debate, as it should be at times.

Makes it fun!

 

Cheers!

 

 

[doushantuo]

ChaseB, thanx for the extremely quick response.

I like to read chronologically*,proceeding from the oldest piece of literature on a taxon to the newest.

*I am aware that might boil down to potential(/-partial) time-wasting,but that's a calculated risk i take.Plus ,it's second nature/old habit.

So the Boyd bit will have to wait

Westcoast,I think i know what you mean