Bivalve ID help request

[mediterranic]

Hello,

 

Can someone help identify this Bivalve? It comes from the Gondwnaspis quarry, near mount Issimour, Morocco. I suppose then it is Devonian. 

 

This specimen has 3,4 cm.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Miguel

[westcoast]

Can we see a view of the opposite side of the second image. It looks more like a brachiopod.

[mediterranic]

6 minutes ago, westcoast said:

Can we see a view of the opposite side of the second image. It looks more like a brachiopod.

 

This side?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Miguel

Or this one?

[mediterranic]

Another specimen:

[westcoast]

First one doesn't have the area preserved I was hoping for but I would still say brachiopod. The second is definitely brachiopod, possibly Atrypid.

[mediterranic]

12 minutes ago, westcoast said:

First one doesn't have the area preserved I was hoping for but I would still say brachiopod. The second is definitely brachiopod, possibly Atrypid.

 

Thanks for your opinion, @westcoast. Do you think they are of different species?

[ynot]

Agree with both being brachiopods.

They do look like different species.

[westcoast]

Yes certainly different species.

[mediterranic]

I think I found a match here with Gruenewaldtia latilinguis. What do you guys think?

 

 

 

the bible is here:

http://www.asgp.pl/sites/default/files/volumes/83_4_243_307.pdf 

[mediterranic]

I Think this one can be just one valve of Devonogypa spinulosa. Do you agree?

 

?

 

Fig. 12. Devonogypaspinulosa (Havlíèek, 1951) from Aferdou. A–D. Ven tral valve in dor sal, ven tral, pos te rior, and lat eral views. E–G. In completear tic u lated shell in dor sal, ven tral, and an terior views. H–K. Subcomplete ar tic u lated shell in dor sal, ven tral, pos te rior, and lat - eral views. L–M. Ven tral valve in ven tral view; gen eral view (M) and microornamentation (L)

 

 

[westcoast]

They certainly look like a reasonable match however I have to caution about using any specific or even generic name without carefully looking at the publushed diagnostic systematic descriptions which may include internal features which are not visible in your specimens. This of course applies to all the ID's suggested on this forum for brachiopods, not just your ones. Having said that if you have published faunal lists from the location then reasonable assumptions can be made.

[mediterranic]

6 minutes ago, westcoast said:

They certainly look like a reasonable match however I have to caution about using any specific or even generic name without carefully looking at the publushed diagnostic systematic descriptions which may include internal features which are not visible in your specimens. This of course applies to all the ID's suggested on this forum for brachiopods, not just your ones. Having said that if you have published faunal lists from the location then reasonable assumptions can be made.

 

Will certainly go to read everything. I've already seen that tricky part of internal features in another TFF post. Maider (the place of this paper) it's very near from where I collected those ones. Around 30 km and in the same geologic complex.

 

Btw, googling those two species, similar specimens appear. 

[mediterranic]

Already confirmed, with morning light, careful observation and reading everything about it on the paper that Gruenewaldtia latilinguis is correctly identified. The new name is  Terebratula latilinguis

 

 

 

[doushantuo]

Great one ,Westcoast.

Only reason for not pressing "informative" is that you' re telling yours truly nothing new there.

 

The process of determination of a species can entail the (partial destruction of) specimens.

Oy yeah,and crowding CAN cause deformation of coenothyrid valves

Sorry,that was a" brach hiccup" 

 

 

[doushantuo]

Miguel,i just had the following thought:you can(not saying you will) possibly gain a commercial advantage by the determinations /systematic

assignments of this forum, ... since you advertise a fossil store. I am not a great fan of potential conflicts of interest, is what I am saying.

 

[ynot]

58 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

gain a commercial advantage

At least He is trying to get the correct names on His fossils.

Much better than just assigning them as something rare to sell them.

[westcoast]

That had occured to me too @doushantuo. Are there specific forum rules that apply to this? As long as @mediterranic has made it clear that he is a professional then if the trilobite experts (in particular) choose to assist then that is their decision (imho). Other than that we all gain the benefit of the ID's. As per @ynot comment above  perhaps we  should encourage all dealers to be as diligent. Any moderator comment on this?

[doushantuo]

Mediterranic is (co/)author of more than a few trilobite papers,I noticed.

Ynot's comment indicates a possible misunderstanding of what I'm trying to say here.  

The way a fossil shop conduct its business is its own.Period.It's up to the customer to pay attention.

Read the conditions of sale,if present.

Mistrust "certificates of authenthicity".

Do some research yourself,come to a fossil shop prepared.

 

 

The costs of correct determinations are part & parcel of a fossil dealer's business ,and these costs shouldn't be defrayed (or partly so) by this forum.

 

At the VERY worst,this forum would be infinging laws governing fair competition in trade

A very diligent dealer might send emails to resident experts **worldwide,asking for their opinions*.

oh,this naive optimism of mine

 

*Or several opinions

**summarily and irritatingly defined as someone who understands words like heterochrony,anisomyarian,gap analysis,chilidium,lecithotrophic, mahalanobis distance,

epibole,vicariance biogeography,masseteric fossa,etc.

  

[Fossildude19]

I have no issue with Mediterranic getting ID's here, so long as he is aware that there is margin for error, and ID's without the specimen in hand are best guesses, at most.

I'd rather have a dealer trying to be diligent by getting info here, rather than selling something with no information.  

 

I see no conflict. 

 

 

[ynot]

16 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

At the VERY worst,this forum would be infinging laws governing fair competition in trade

Since the Fossil Forum is open to all who want to be here I see no bias in a dealer using the site (within the rules for the site).

[doushantuo]

Tim,of course he has a right to be here,in fact,he's very welcome.

There's probably loads more dealers on this forum BTW,unless i'm VERY much mistaken

 

[Auspex]

I applaud the efforts of any seller of fossils who puts real effort into accuracy

[doushantuo]

 

There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that what Miguel has shown us up to now was meant to be put up for sale.

Like westcoast said: consultation of the holotype*,etc

 

The fossils are from Issimour Morocco.If so,the matrix ought to contain Illite,chamosite and rectorite

 

I've said it before,brachiopods know a lot of homoeomorphy.

Telling them apart can be extremely tricky

*Often NOT done,BTW

 

 

[mediterranic]

Hello everybody.

 

This sure is an interesting post on its own. Let me state my opinion about all this. Also, because this was (and still is) a "fight" of an important part of my live.

I am a Biologist. My expertise is birds of prey. During more than one decade, I've also been President of a Portuguese NGO of Nature Conservation.

I began my PhD. and didn't conclude it yet, mainly due to trilobites. The papers I have in Academia.edu stated above are not mine. It clearly says "Useful publications (Trilobites) - other authors". Mines, there, are the birds of prey and iberian lynx preys related papers. And a public interactive and updatable map of a discovery about a new butterfly to continental Africa I made during my birds and fossils trips to Morocco, Algeria and Mauritania. I have now an eBay store and a website selling fossils, mainly Moroccan trilobites. All the ID's and tips I get from this and other fora are used to properly label my items. Some weeks ago, I informed a forum's moderator and Scott about it. I even asked if I can present some pieces to sell here in TFF, as other sellers do. Some sales are even done here immediately after requesting help on fossils ID. 

 

Having said all that, I am not an expert in the laws. I guide my real life for good sense and my online live for stated Terms and Conditions of fora and sites I use. In my humble opinion, a conflict of interests is when someone changes its decision power, according to economic (or other order) gains. Normally impairing other people and corruption are concepts not far away from the "conflict of interests" sentence.

 

This situation reminds me (fortunately, I must say), the times, many years ago, when I arrived in the Moroccan desert and the concept of conflict of interests was many times in the air. I arrived with sand blasters and other rare machines  (at that time) and began to spread a no-bondo and no-composites speech during the first years. I didn't know anything about trilobites preparation and the bad preparers (with whom I didn't work or whose pieces I didn't bough) quickly start defending their positions saying I was trying to disqualify their work in order to benefit people working with me. That never affected me, because I know my real motivations. And those are to avoid people being scammed when paying little fortunes for fossils. I forgot birds of prey, I moved to the desert and to Marrakech and I learn to prepare and fake trilobites. Because I have been scammed, I cheated some clients without knowing what I was doing and I couldn't live with that, if I want to continue trading trilobites. That's the reason why it is normally easy for me to evaluate Moroccan trilobites even from pictures (with the logic margin of human error, of course). Because I learned how to fake them.

 

Then I saw that too many dealers were selling fake fossils by mistake. Really mistake, because I knew them in France and German fairs and they are good persons. I opened a section on eBay some years ago (it was a "collection" or something like that) where I bookmarked the trustful trilobites (from other sellers). A delicated project, as everybody can guess. Never had direct critics, but, instead, some sellers began, times to time, to ask me what I though about one piece or another. That was a public participation listing and nobody wanted to help. It doesn't give you money promoting your concurrence articles, I think. So, I abandoned that. But I think that trilobites at Morocco are literally endless, and if you chose the quality, there is no concurrence at all. Neither in Morocco, neither at web. Same way, I didn't update anymore that Academia.edu section of other author's interesting papers because it began the open access era and everybody can, now, to download or crack (through Sci hub), almost any paper. And now, at this forum, I meet Scott, that made the incredible and meritorious pro bono work of compiling thousands of papers and help professionals and amateurs. 

 

I am not really a person to talk to much about "me" and I've done that much more than I hope now. I never won a cent from a paper that I've published. My interest is, somehow, to continue this beautiful trading fossils live while contributing to a cooperative and sustainable project in the Moroccan desert, with the non-fakes and quality leads always present. And to contribute to eradicate mistakes (that I also made, but I can't accept as a scientist) from selling sites. I don't think it's the client's responsibility to know what they are buying. Not when I defend a "trust your seller" philosophy. We have technological (techo-logical) means nowadays than doesn't excuse scientific laziness from the ones that sell thousand dollar items. The opposite, let's me think that, the ones that doesn't use those means want to present forced rarities. And that yes, it is clearly censurable. And why to send dubious "certificates of authenthicity"?. It is so bad as producing fake trilobites at the desert. 

 

As part of my sustainable development project in the desert, I will begin to present UV pictures of my trilobites to my clients. Does that gives me an advantage to other sellers? No. Because they can do it too. I do not contact just you guys here. I ask help to Bonino, to Sam, to K. Derstler, to Russell, to Moroccans (that know much more about quarrys that most of the people thinks), just name it. I don't intend to resume my participation here just to "SOS ID's": I am available to analyze potential fakes, I am studying some papers and trying to reach my own conclusions (as in this brachiopods question), I am preparing albums with the best trilobites and Morocco pictures (which are thousands and must be useful to public), as forum moderators might see. I don't gain over others because I do it. I think others lose if they don't do the same. Because they can.

 

And yes, I am selling fossils. A few posts ago, I wrote that I think it is unacceptable that the "best" fossil sites have scientific mistakes. I understood that, politely, nobody commented it. Hope that changes and really hope that clients and the community in general create the necessary pressure to oblige sellers to find their means to do it. And that demands filter the ones that doesn't. 

 

And I hope that this forum can be a privileged place to, yet in 2017, present and get support to a sustainable project in the desert around this beautiful theme of fossils science and trade. A project where sponsors get some pieces they like and the possibility to know the desert's digging and preparing fossils world and the Berber families that lives from it.

 

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to express my thoughts. I wish to have contributes and opinions from forum moderators. I have already changed ideas before with Tim, asking if I can sell here times to times. I want to sincerely acknowledge all the time and help from Scott @piranha.

 

My sincere best regards to all,

 

Miguel Caldeira Pais

 

 

 

 

 

[westcoast]

Very nicely written Miguel.