Kem kem fossil bones

[Haravex]

Ok so after doing a lot of buying collecting and digging in the Kem kem area of morocco I have some nice finds that I could use help identifying if that is ok first one to post is a vert unsure of its species though and ultimately did not buy as was expensive but would love to know the rest of the fossils I own need cleaning before taking pictures but when that is done will post here if that is ok with you good folks.

[LordTrilobite]

That is definitely a dinosaur cervical vertebra. Somewhere from the back of the neck. Looks like a fantastic piece too. Though I'm seeing some possible repair on the left lateral process. But that's hard to tell because there's still a lot of sediment on the vertebra.

 

As to the species. There's a number of different dinosaurs present in the Kem Kem area. Most of them Theropods. But I can tell you that this is most likely from Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis, which is a Spinosaurid. There are at least two Spinosaurids present in the Kem Kem beds. One of them is Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis and the other might be Spinosaurus aegyptiacus.

There's mainly two things that make me think this is Sigilmassasaurus and not Spinosaurus. The centrum is incredibly wide, much wider than it is tall. And on the bottom, the ridge that runs from front to back ends in a triangular rugose plateau that apparently only apppears in Sigilmassasaurus.

For more details and differences between Sigilmassasaurus and Spinosaurus there's this paper.

https://peerj.com/articles/1323/

 

 

[Haravex]

Thank you for the response I now have some from my collection I got from kem kem again. 

Weight 649g

Width at thickest 40mm

Rostal to caudal 165mm

Dorsal to Ventral 145mm

Having some difficulty uploading images due to 3.95mb limit but have more pictures

[Max-fossils]

1 hour ago, Haravex said:

 

Having some difficulty uploading images due to 3.95mb limit but have more pictures

If you refresh the page, you should be able to post more pictures (in a new reply).

[Haravex]

Thanks 

[Haravex]

Final pictures of this specimen 

[Haravex]

This is a picture of about half the large pieces very new to this so any help in identifying skeletal sections would be very helpful 

[JohnBrewer]

14 hours ago, Haravex said:

Ok so after doing a lot of buying collecting and digging in the Kem kem area of morocco I have some nice finds that I could use help identifying if that is ok first one to post is a vert unsure of its species though and ultimately did not buy as was expensive but would love to know the rest of the fossils I own need cleaning before taking pictures but when that is done will post here if that is ok with you good folks.

[hxmendoza]

11 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

That is definitely a dinosaur cervical vertebra. Somewhere from the back of the neck. Looks like a fantastic piece too. Though I'm seeing some possible repair on the left lateral process. But that's hard to tell because there's still a lot of sediment on the vertebra.

 

As to the species. There's a number of different dinosaurs present in the Kem Kem area. Most of them Theropods. But I can tell you that this is most likely from Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis, which is a Spinosaurid. There are at least two Spinosaurids present in the Kem Kem beds. One of them is Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis and the other might be Spinosaurus aegyptiacus.

There's mainly two things that make me think this is Sigilmassasaurus and not Spinosaurus. The centrum is incredibly wide, much wider than it is tall. And on the bottom, the ridge that runs from front to back ends in a triangular rugose plateau that apparently only apppears in Sigilmassasaurus.

For more details and differences between Sigilmassasaurus and Spinosaurus there's this paper.

https://peerj.com/articles/1323/

 

 

 

I'm in full agreement with Lord Trilobite and his supportive information.

Sigilmassasaurus cervical vertebra.

[LordTrilobite]

6 hours ago, Haravex said:

 

This one looks like it might be fragment of a skull. It's a weird shape. And weird shapes don't fit in a whole lot of places. It vaguely looks like part of a rib. But that detail photo shows a clear suture where it would attach to another bone. This excludes ribs, which makes me think it's a skull bone. Skulls have some weird curved bones and this kinda reminds me of something that would fit around one of the fenestrae.

This could be a pretty cool bone.

 

 

1 hour ago, Haravex said:

This is a picture of about half the large pieces very new to this so any help in identifying skeletal sections would be very helpful 

It's hard to tell from a photo like this. Many of these seem like chunks with not a lot of diagnostic features. But who knows maybe there's something in there with some clear features that could still be identified. It looks like some of them fit together too. Might be interesting to see what comes out of this.

[Haravex]

This is the opposite side and also thanks for the information was thinking some sort of skull or jaw fossil

[Haravex]

On 8/1/2017 at 10:32 PM, LordTrilobite said:

 

This one looks like it might be fragment of a skull. It's a weird shape. And weird shapes don't fit in a whole lot of places. It vaguely looks like part of a rib. But that detail photo shows a clear suture where it would attach to another bone. This excludes ribs, which makes me think it's a skull bone. Skulls have some weird curved bones and this kinda reminds me of something that would fit around one of the fenestrae.

This could be a pretty cool bone.

 

 

It's hard to tell from a photo like this. Many of these seem like chunks with not a lot of diagnostic features. But who knows maybe there's something in there with some clear features that could still be identified. It looks like some of them fit together too. Might be interesting to see what comes out of this.

@LordTrilobite could it be jugal or quadratojugal they are the only places i could see the bone fitting, also any idea on how to do a 3d scan of this bone as that might be of some help in identifying, as for the rest curretnly cleaning and waiting on acetone and b72 to preserve and secure fossils.

[Haravex]

20170802_230147.mp4 says i cannot submit empty content otherwise would delete and add to original post sorry for the double and is video of a near 360 degree view 

[LordTrilobite]

Hah, using a video to show the shape is a great idea. I don't think anyone's done that on the forum before. I think this fossil is one of those that once you see it it might be obvious. But finding the right fit can be quite tricky. It's definitely a cool piece. Jugal or quadratojugal could be a posibility. With such a flat bone there's not a whole lot else it can be. The suture on the one end will definitely help.

 

At the moment I don't see exactly where it would fit and on which dinosaur. But I'd sugest start by looking at the skulls of the different Theropods that are present in Kem Kem, like Carcharodontosaurids, Spinosaurids and Abelisaurids.

 

And if you're wanting to get into 3D scanning. You might want to look into photogrammetry.

Cris made a fantastic tutorial taht got me into the process. It's fairly easy to learn the basics.

 

 

Edit: Spinosaurus quadratojugal or postorbital might be interesting to look at. It seems to have some similarities.

[Haravex]

@LordTrilobite how will the sutures help? I can only find photographs of the outside of qj and post orbital 

[LordTrilobite]

Well, the suture tells you that another bone was attached there.

[Haravex]

1 hour ago, LordTrilobite said:

Well, the suture tells you that another bone was attached there.

So make a cast of the sutures maybe? That might help in figuring out what would have fitted there?

[LordTrilobite]

I don't think that would help much. I would just keep looking around for possible matches. It looks like the convex flat side is probably the outside. So if it's a quadratojugal my guess is that it would be from the side. The problem is that there's not a whole lot of skull material known from the Kem Kem beds. I don;t think the quadratojugal is known for Carcharodontosaurus. I think it known for Spinosaurus though. Many Abelisaurids have quite rough skull surfaces. But almost no skull material is known from these animals in Kem Kem.

 

[Haravex]

This is the problem I keep running into and there is not much other skull material on carchardonosaurids however when looking at both allosaurus and tyranosaurus it looked to be very similar

[LordTrilobite]

Tyrannosaurus wouldn't be the best example since it doesn't have any close relatives in Africa. But if you want more reference that is similar to Carcharodontosaurus you might also want to look at Giganotosaurus and Mapusaurus from South America. Those are both pretty closely related to Carcharodontosaurus.

[Haravex]

ok second one is a small tooth (thinking baby carchar or possibly dromaeosaurid)

weight 1g

straight line 20mm

outer curve 21mm

inner curve 10mm (fracture occurs around 60% up the inner curve hence not measured, if was complete i would put it at around 17mm)

circumference around middle 13mm

[Haravex]

second set of pictures

[LordTrilobite]

Looks like Abelisauridae, nice tooth.

[Haravex]

1 minute ago, LordTrilobite said:

Looks like Abelisauridae, nice tooth.

thanks i was happy to find it also found some small bones near it but nothing seeming to connect, am i right in thinking the kem kem beds are ...well where a floowing river hence forth no articulated fossils are found and the reason for so much clay in the deposits?

[LordTrilobite]

Oh there are definitely some articulated fossils. But yes, they are quite rare.