ynot Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Hey Hi Folks, Had a discussion with @MeargleSchmeargl about the definition of the term "lightning streak (strike, mark)", as referred to sharks teeth. I would like to get the opinion of the members on this one, just for clarification. @Shellseeker, @sharktoothhunter, @MarcoSr, @siteseer, @Northern Sharks, @Sacha, @caldigger, @digit, @isurus90064, @NSRhunter, @sixgill pete, @squali, @njfossilhunter, @Al Dente, @frankh8147, @jcbshark, @John Hamilton, @fossilselachian, @Auspex, @Fossildude19, @Boesse, @Paleoc, @Troodon @obsessed1, (if I missed anyone please feel free to tag them. if I missed You please feel free to reply.) The question is -- What are lightning strikes (streaks, marks) as applied to shark teeth? Thanks Y'all! Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I think this term is most often used to refer to the spider web pattern left by contact of fossil tooth enamel with in-situ plant roots. The weak acids secreted by the roots (or by their decay) etches a spider web or lightning pattern into the tooth enamel. Ive seen this a few times in reference to Bone Valley megs. Here is an example from the forum of a mako: 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digit Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Yup. That's how I understand this marking pattern as well. Cheers. -Ken 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I agree with that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSRhunter Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Right on Doctor Mud! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I agree with plant roots causing the pattern. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Agree with the experts. The thing I find most curious is this phenomenon seems to have higher probability of modifying shark teeth than mammal teeth, at least in my hunting grounds. There is likely a reason that escapes me at this moment. 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcbshark Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I'm not sure what causes it but I have pulled teeth right from the layer they were deposited in that have shown these marks and they were 15-20 feet beneath the current ground level. Maybe it was done when the fossil was still relatively " new" and closer to the surface? I do notice around me some areas seem more likley to produce teeth like that. 2 Every once in a great while it's not just a big rock down there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I agree with Doctor Mud also on this. It is always a pleasure to find one of these beauties. 1 Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJB Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thanks to @Doctor Mud, it now makes perfect sence now. RB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted August 5, 2017 Author Share Posted August 5, 2017 Thanks for the replies Guys! For those that have not made a comment--- Please feel free to add new comments here, I am looking for more comments one way or the other. 2 hours ago, jcbshark said: I'm not sure what causes it but I have pulled teeth right from the layer they were deposited in that have shown these marks and they were 15-20 feet beneath the current ground level. Maybe it was done when the fossil was still relatively " new" and closer to the surface? I do notice around me some areas seem more likley to produce teeth like that. Some plants are known to have roots that go 160 feet below the surface. So 20 feet would be well within the range of roots. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brett Breakin' Rocks Posted August 5, 2017 Share Posted August 5, 2017 I'd also like to say my understanding has always been the streaks of 'lightning' seen on the surface/subsurface of teeth enamel. It is often described online for collectors as lightning strikes or marbling so it's really just a descriptive term. Though I think the root theory is suspect in some cases. As stated @jcbshark these teeth sometimes come from layers that may never have seen a root of any sort. I'd be curious if it wasn't a similar process that creates dendrites ... or some sort of mineral leeching across the surface or under the surface slowly over time. Maybe minute cracks in the rock/clay acting like a stencil on the surface. ... and/or small imperfections acting as pathways through the enamel for the leeching minerals. PS. This Hemipristis that popped up on our favorite auction site was just gorgeous. Photo Source Credit : CalUsa31 ( Zach Frignoca ) Primitive Past Cheers, Brett 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 I would love to bury some Isurus in a flower pot to quantify this.... Do teeth from locations that preserve (or even enrich?) the phosphate level in the tooth attract more plant root erosion? How long does it take to visibly etch the enamel? Are different species' teeth more susceptible than others (Hemipristis seems particularly prone, anecdotally). Which plants are the most aggressive at etching them? Such are my musings.... 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDudeCO Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 I came across this post by accident, but I may have something to add. @Troodon May be able to help as well. I have seen this pattern on lots of Dino teeth for sale as well and have heard exactly @Doctor Mud hypothesis. You see them as well, but not as commonly on fossils from the White River Formation that @jpc could potentially verify. I think plant sounds logical for the shark teeth, since it also happens with a lot of other teeth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 I think one of @ynot's major aims was to see if there was a consensus as to whether the informal term "lightning strikes" refers to cracks in the enamel or some sort of chemical alteration of the tooth enamel (e.g. Etching by acids). It is looking like a consensus is forming that "lightning strikes" are formed by a chemical alteration of the tooth enamel. It could be that more than one process can lead to such chemical alteration, which I think is possible, either contact with plant roots or leaching by groundwater, perhaps through small cracks in the matrix? This might be the case for teeth that might not have been in contact with plant roots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 On August 5, 2017 at 8:10 AM, ynot said: Thanks for the replies Guys! For those that have not made a comment--- Please feel free to add new comments here, I am looking for more comments one way or the other. Some plants are known to have roots that go 160 feet below the surface. So 20 feet would be well within the range of roots. Hi Tony, I'm a little skeptical of the plant root idea too as a complete explanation. That would mean that you can't get that kind of discoloration pattern at a site that had always been marine or one that had been marine and became desert without much of a vegetated environment in between. I think it's also like how fossils get their color - water seeping through rock bringing a wash of solutions with it to add colors but sometimes washing the color away in odd patterns. Acids don't come just from plant roots. It depends on the minerals in the rock and even rainwater can vary in acidity. The funny thing is that a discolored tooth is often less desirable to a collector than one with nice color, but if the discoloring takes on some recognizable pattern or some odd shading or splotching, suddenly it's an art piece. Jess 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I seem to have problems with the plant root theory myself. How is it that teeth (referring to shark in my argument) with the " lightning" pattern are often found in between layers of teeth that do not sport this coloring? I would think if roots were the culprit, then the teeth found above them and around them would have this as well. It just doesn't make sense to me that in a group of say twelve teeth found in a one square foot area, that you may only find one with the markings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 3 hours ago, caldigger said: I seem to have problems with the plant root theory myself. How is it that teeth (referring to shark in my argument) with the " lightning" pattern are often found in between layers of teeth that do not sport this coloring? I would think if roots were the culprit, then the teeth found above them and around them would have this as well. It just doesn't make sense to me that in a group of say twelve teeth found in a one square foot area, that you may only find one with the markings. The conclusion that I have come to from this discussion and some thought is that plant roots represent one possible mechanism that may create an environment conducive to the etching of the enamel on shark teeth. There are many different processes that could achieve this and plants roots represent only one subset of a number of processes. All that is needed is some way to alter the pH and possibly interact with the tooth in different ways at the tooth scale. Plant roots or differential interaction by groundwater would suffice. I would offer a couple of possibilities for individual layers only having lightning strikes or not all teeth in an individual horizon having them. Plant roots may only contact with some teeth in a individual layer. Also if there is an unconformity with sub-aerial exposure plant roots may contact one layer, then re-deposition of marine sediments. Re-working of teeth that were in root contact and mixing into an assemblage may be possible. These are possibilities, but not really required if we consider that other mechanisms can lead to the lightning strike pattern. This multiple mechanism hypothesis would be the simplest solution. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Mud Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I thought this paper was interesting: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/499/1/012015/pdf Influence of depositional environment in fossil teeth: a micro-XRF and XAFS study It talks about fine scale variations in diagenesis of tooth enamel resulting from dissolution and recrystallisation of bioapatite. We have a micro-XRF at work. Never thought of scanning fossil teeth before...... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I am not going to say much about shark teeth, but with dinosaur bones it is very common to see color changes due to plant roots. The roots line the surface of the bone and take some of the minerals, leaving bleached areas where they were. And you can see this first hand by peeling away nets of roots, and there is the same pattern you just removed, but on the bone itself. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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