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Plantguy

Florida vertebrate unknown questions

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Plantguy

Hey Gang, 

 

Several better preserved examples I could use your help on. Surface finds. Typical Florida, possible Miocene to Plio-Pleistocene? in age.  

 

A couple of horse teeth. Any ideas on which ones. I'll throw out Cormohipparion as a possibility. 

598685a8de18f_Horseexamplesa.thumb.jpg.f971cdf8f29e27b509764a4edb4dfafd.jpg598685b5c1766_Horseexamplesocclusal.thumb.jpg.bb233d1bfd9ec3a4a3ec6b46fc4e95cb.jpg

A vert. I'm guessing fish but its not very symmetrical and isnt complete. seems to be deformed in many ways. Any ideas? 

598685d016677_Possiblefishvert.thumb.jpg.dd9d5afc83607fc591972ece130970f0.jpg

Lastly, I'm thinking tapir. If yes, is it possible to tell which species? 

598685f711991_PossibleTapirtootha.thumb.jpg.7481b472489c12b136f1b7616af1a1d6.jpg598685f64bf54_PossibleTapirtooth.thumb.jpg.d3a7f88e8dce22d467207484c31842c5.jpg

598685f57e29a_PossibleTapirtoothocclusal.thumb.jpg.71b131e18ca04f23f9bdc3cb14baba0e.jpg

 

Thanks for the looks and help. 

Regards, Chris 

 

 

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Shellseeker

http://www.fossilguy.com/sites/l_creek/lcrk_col_fish.htm

2nd is large fish vert , there is a link to filefish fossil vert that has some similarity so might be in the same family.

There are at the minimum, 6 extinct fossil species of Tapirus known to have lived in Florida.  These are:  Tapirus veroensis, Tapirus haysii, Tapirus lundeliusi, Tapirus webbi, Tapirus polkensis, and Tapirus simpsoni.

If any can be identified from a single tooth, you have to ask Hulbert for help.

As Harry has frequently reminded, Hulbert states that a tooth of this size is Equus,  maybe early equus like Equus simplicidens , but still equus ---

My 3rd photo in the thread above seems to match your find... I would be pleased if we could actually identify it as something other than base Equus.  Once again, Hulbert is the key.

Equus5.jpg.831ad93ac0e7f9639b86a0aec7ee34a4.thumb.jpg.24c4519aa6ce5ed1988883877df0a3c9.jpg

 

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Plantguy
2 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

http://www.fossilguy.com/sites/l_creek/lcrk_col_fish.htm

2nd is large fish vert , there is a link to filefish fossil vert that has some similarity so might be in the same family.

There are at the minimum, 6 extinct fossil species of Tapirus known to have lived in Florida.  These are:  Tapirus veroensis, Tapirus haysii, Tapirus lundeliusi, Tapirus webbi, Tapirus polkensis, and Tapirus simpsoni.

If any can be identified from a single tooth, you have to ask Hulbert for help.

As Harry has frequently reminded, Hulbert states that a tooth of this size is Equus,  maybe early equus like Equus simplicidens , but still equus ---

My 3rd photo in the thread above seems to match your find... I would be pleased if we could actually identify it as something other than base Equus.  Once again, Hulbert is the key.

 

 

Thanks Jack for the looks and info. Much appreciated. 

 

Regards, Chris 

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abyssunder

Hi Chris! Those are pretty nice finds. Thanks for posting them. :)
I agree with Jack about all what he said/suggested.
The only add-on of mine would be that the vert could be a hyperostosed vert of a filefish. Hyperostosis might be the reason why it is deformed. Below is an excerpt, from here , related to hyperostosis in Aluterus vertebrae.

 

0189.thumb.jpg.39778ea4c9e7a2a924b7b113fd6db099.jpg

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Harry Pristis
3 hours ago, Shellseeker said:
3 hours ago, Shellseeker said:

http://www.fossilguy.com/sites/l_creek/lcrk_col_fish.htm

2nd is large fish vert , there is a link to filefish fossil vert that has some similarity so might be in the same family.

There are at the minimum, 6 extinct fossil species of Tapirus known to have lived in Florida.  These are:  Tapirus veroensis, Tapirus haysii, Tapirus lundeliusi, Tapirus webbi, Tapirus polkensis, and Tapirus simpsi.

If any can be identified from a single tooth, you have to ask Hulbert for help.

As Harry has frequently reminded, Hulbert states that a tooth of this size is Equus,  maybe early equus like Equus simplicidens , but still equus ---

My 3rd photo in the thread above seems to match your find... I would be pleased if we could actually identify it as something other than base Equus.  Once again, Hulbert is the key.

 

http://www.fossilguy.com/sites/l_creek/lcrk_col_fish.htm

2nd is large fish vert , there is a link to filefish fossil vert that has some similarity so might be in the same family.

There are at the minimum, 6 extinct fossil species of Tapirus known to have lived in Florida.  These are:  Tapirus veroensis, Tapirus haysii, Tapirus lundeliusi, Tapirus webbi, Tapirus polkensis, and Tapirus simpsoni.

If any can be identified from a single tooth, you have to ask Hulbert for help.

As Harry has frequently reminded, Hulbert states that a tooth of this size is Equus,  maybe early equus like Equus simplicidens , but still equus ---

My 3rd photo in the thread above seems to match your find... I would be pleased if we could actually identify it as something other than base Equus.  Once again, Hulbert is the key.

 

 

 

I don't recall saying that size alone dictates Equus, and I doubt that that is a standard in which Hulbert puts much faith.  Tapir teeth, on the other hand, lend themselves to a sort by size (correctly or not so much)  Tapirs are very conservative, and size of the teeth is the difference that jumps out at the non-expert.  I don't have a guess as to Chris's tapir tooth . . . more precise measurements of the L and W of the crown would be a necessary start.

 

The two horse teeth appear to me to be, left to right, Equus upper left M2 and Equus upper right P2.  Jack's last image appears to be of an Equus upper right M1.

 

 

horse_cormohipparion_upper.JPG

tapirmaxcomparison.JPG

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Plantguy
2 hours ago, abyssunder said:

Hi Chris! Those are pretty nice finds. Thanks for posting them. :)
I agree with Jack about all what he said/suggested.
The only add-on of mine would be that the vert could be a hyperostosed vert of a filefish. Hyperostosis might be the reason why it is deformed. Below is an excerpt, from here , related to hyperostosis in Aluterus vertebrae.

 

0189.thumb.jpg.39778ea4c9e7a2a924b7b113fd6db099.jpg

Hey Lori, thanks for the look and info. I havent had my neck xrayed in awhile but I'm supposing this critter and me might have some stories to share. The last chiropractor wanted to know after reviewing my old and new xrays and showing me some anomolies if I had ever been in an auto accident. The answer was no! LOL. I did use to swim and dive some!

 

Regards, Chris 

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doushantuo

Vollmerhaus et al(from "The phylogeny of equid dentition",title translated)(showing upper jaw molar evolution,bunodont,lophodont and selenodont patterns) :

bryozs.jpg

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Plantguy
1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

I don't recall saying that size alone dictates Equus, and I doubt that that is a standard in which Hulbert puts much faith.  Tapir teeth, on the other hand, lend themselves to a sort by size (correctly or not so much)  Tapirs are very conservative, and size of the teeth is the difference that jumps out at the non-expert.  I don't have a guess as to Chris's tapir tooth . . . more precise measurements of the L and W of the crown would be a necessary start.

 

The two horse teeth appear to me to be, left to right, Equus upper left M2 and Equus upper right P2.  Jack's last image appears to be of an Equus upper right M1.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Harry for sharing the expertise. 

 

Regards, Chris 

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