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WhodamanHD

Aeduella blainvillei

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WhodamanHD

I bought myself this purty fish for relatively cheap (under 25$). It is labeled as so:

Aeduella blainvillei (Agassiz)

Permian (Rotliegendes)

Muse pres d'atun

central France

Are all these correct? (Muse pres d'atun means a museum close to Autun right?)

anyone have any information on the locality, the fish, it's relatives (extinct or extant). Any papers or articles would help, I like to know a bit about specimens I own.

i read the (translated) Wikipedia page and it didn't help a whole lot.

The stone has other scales all over it, and the seller said there is a specimen on the back, but I guess it isn't all on the stone?

IMG_2756.JPG

IMG_2757.JPG

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Fossildude19

Maybe @oilshale can chime in here.

I can only tell you that the fish is pictured upside down. ;)

Regards,

 

 

IMG_2756.JPG.034d404815d34f4638f9a1ac1e06d053.JPG

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WhodamanHD
2 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Maybe @oilshale can chime in here.

I can only tell you that the fish is pictured upside down. ;)

Regards,

You are correct, sorry about that. 

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doushantuo

I would love to post the Heyler the usual way...

however,it's too big

You have there a classic Permocarboniferous (European,though not strictly so) type of fish.

These paleoniscoids have been mostly described by European ichthyologists,so the literature is either in German or in French;Exceptions being Gottfied's

1987 PZ paper on aeduelliform relationships(based on a cf. Bourbonella),and Stamberg's work (e.g.)on Bohemian aeduellids

Musee is "museum" by the way 

as you can see,aeduellids have comparatively large orbits.

Your specimen doen's seem to have them preserved

 

5t6hb.jpg

Burgin(1990,his piece on Rotliegend fish("Autunian") of Switzerland

burg5t6hb.jpg

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doushantuo

uppermost is A.Blainvillei(Poplin & Dutheil,2005)

5tu6hb.jpg

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doushantuo

All translations mine.

35 rows of lozengiform scales from supracleithurm to caudal region inversion,"peg & socket type"

30 lepidotrichs in the anal fin

Muse specimens have about 25 rays in the dorsal fin 

edit: Muse ,btw,is a town

Species probably endemic to the Autun basin,alhought the Gottfried find has thrown some doubt on that.

Gottfried himself thinks that one cf specimen is too little to go on to change the ideas about aeduellid paleobiogeography

These characters are from the Saar(Germany) basin specimen,the Muse specimens are NOT well-preserved,as such things go

2: isolated maxilla

3:anterior part of body with onset of lateral line

4:detail of dorsal fin insertion

 

armad.jpg

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WhodamanHD

Thanks for the information @doushantuo! I'll be going through it all soon.

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marguy

sorry, also in french...

Les Aeduellidae (Pisces, Actinopterygii) carbonifères et permiens : systématique et étude phylogénétique préliminaire

Cécile POPLIN Didier B. DUTHEIL

 

4251_g05n1a2.pdf

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WhodamanHD

@marguy

thank you for the pdfs, I'll use google translate. The seller said the fossil was collected more than forty years ago, its cool to know the site where this little guy came out of no longer produces publicly available fossils. Thank you again!

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GeschWhat

Hey Mason, how big is your fish? I bought a coprolite from the same location (probably from the same seller). Any chance you could compare the scales on yours to the scales I found in my poo? I'm just curious to see if I have the same fish. :D

Coprolite-Aeduella-Beds-Rotliegendes-Autun-France-Fish-Scale-Inclusion-1.jpg

Coprolite-Aeduella-Beds-Rotliegendes-Autun-France-Fish-Scale-Inclusion-2.jpg

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marguy

 

On ‎01‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 1:46 AM, GeschWhat said:

I'm just curious to see if I have the same fish.

Hello GeschWat,
I think, without guarantee, that the scales on your pictures  can belong to  Progyrolepis, as well as the coprolite (Progyrolepis = possible cannibal kind, predator at the top of trophic chain)

if you want more information about this fish, you can see http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/default/files/articles/pdf/g1999n2a2.pdf  (no scale picture in this paper, mostly bones) [P. Heyleri, from a nearby (from Muse) permian site in French Massif Central]

and  http://www.geology.cz/bulletin/fulltext/1582_Stamberg_160317.pdf  (with detailed pictures of scales... from stephanian ,in Czech Republik) 

...but generally, to be sure for id. of  Actinopterygian  , bone parts of the skull are necessary, or complete fish!!!

If you want to see a video about scientific excavation, enjoy  https://videotheque.cnrs.fr/visio=4319

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GeschWhat
6 minutes ago, marguy said:

 

Hello GeschWat,
I think, without guarantee, that the scales on your pictures  can belong to  Progyrolepis, as well as the coprolite (Progyrolepis = possible cannibal kind, predator at the top of trophic chain)

if you want more information about this fish, you can see http://sciencepress.mnhn.fr/sites/default/files/articles/pdf/g1999n2a2.pdf  (no scale picture in this paper, mostly bones) [P. Heyleri, from a nearby (from Muse) permian site in French Massif Central]

and  http://www.geology.cz/bulletin/fulltext/1582_Stamberg_160317.pdf  (with detailed pictures of scales... from stephanian ,in Czech Republik) 

...but generally, to be sure for id. of  Actinopterygian  , bone parts of the skull are necessary, or complete fish!!!

If you want to see a video about scientific excavation, enjoy  https://videotheque.cnrs.fr/visio=4319

Thank you so much!

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WhodamanHD

@GeschWhat Sorry I missed your comment, I am not at home right now but it’s probably a little under 4 inches. Looks like you already got your answer! We may have gotten it from the same seller, they have since sold a few more. Cool copro btw:)

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Tidgy's Dad

Nice fishy! :)

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WhodamanHD
5 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Nice fishy! :)

Thank you! Had a chance to find some palaeoniscoid fish bits  yesterday (below, the silvery dots, though nothing as complete as the A. blainvillei.

4D25F9E2-2943-424D-86F6-19EB4F2CFBF3.jpeg

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