My Pennsylvanian Shark Teeth

[Petalodus12]

33 minutes ago, deutscheben said:

After a day of bashing some of the extra La Salle Limestone I had lying around, I actually found a few tiny fish parts. Unfortunately I still don't have a micro-photography setup, so the pics are not the greatest. First is a partial and exceedingly tiny (2 mm tall) cladodont tooth- I will try to prep it out more, but under the magnifying scope you can see the typical wrinkles at the base of the broken cusp, and the distinctive "button" on the root. 

 

 

Next is an intriguing one- I am not sure exactly what it is, but I am nearly certain it comes from a fish. Only a tiny portion of typically fish texture/color was showing after I smashed the block, so I tried to prep it out. Unfortunately, the object itself was so frail and tiny it immediately shattered. However, it left a clear negative impression in the limestone. 

 

 

I seems like some sort of scale or denticle? It is 6 mm long. 

I agree with scale, probably Paleoniscoid. 

[connorp]

46 minutes ago, deutscheben said:

After a day of bashing some of the extra La Salle Limestone I had lying around, I actually found a few tiny fish parts. Unfortunately I still don't have a micro-photography setup, so the pics are not the greatest. First is a partial and exceedingly tiny (2 mm tall) cladodont tooth- I will try to prep it out more, but under the magnifying scope you can see the typical wrinkles at the base of the broken cusp, and the distinctive "button" on the root. 

 

 

Next is an intriguing one- I am not sure exactly what it is, but I am nearly certain it comes from a fish. Only a tiny portion of typically fish texture/color was showing after I smashed the block, so I tried to prep it out. Unfortunately, the object itself was so frail and tiny it immediately shattered. However, it left a clear negative impression in the limestone. 

 

 

I seems like some sort of scale or denticle? It is 6 mm long. 

The first item might be a good candidate to try vinegar on. The second item is probably a paleoniscoid scale as mentioned. I have a bunch of bits of fish bone from the site like this that have definite structure but are too fragmentary to really ID. I have just labeled them all as Osteichthyes indet.

[deutscheben]

Thanks, @Petalodus12 and @connorp! 

[deutscheben]

Since I have been fiddling with taking macro shots with my loupe and phone I decided to try and take some closer pictures of some of my smaller teeth from the La Salle Limestone.

 

First is the tiny reddish petalodont crown- here you can see the different colors a little better.

 

Next is a delightfully small cladodont tooth.

 

I have posted the following partial small tooth elsewhere, but not in this thread yet- it appears to be the root and base of the crown from a petalodont of some sort- you can tell from the shape of the root and the ridges at the base of the crown. I don’t know if this would be an actual juvenile Petalodus or a different smaller genus.

 

 

[deutscheben]

I was also able to prep out the upside-down tooth from the previous page after consolidating the base with superglue and then using vinegar to soften the matrix. Unfortunately some of it was too thin and crumbled, but the majority of the tooth came off cleanly- I believe it is Deltoptychius. 
 

 

[deutscheben]

I don’t have IDs for these two partial crusher teeth, but I wanted to share them as examples of the less complete material I have found in the La Salle Limestone.

 

 

[connorp]

6 hours ago, deutscheben said:

I was also able to prep out the upside-down tooth from the previous page after consolidating the base with superglue and then using vinegar to soften the matrix. Unfortunately some of it was too thin and crumbled, but the majority of the tooth came off cleanly- I believe it is Deltoptychius.

I would agree with Deltoptychius. At least that's what I've been calling these. Both of the specimens I've found were also upside-down, not sure if there's any deep reason as to why. Oh, and that cladodont tooth is lovely!

[fossilsonwheels]

That Cladodont is really nice. They all are excellent finds. 

[jdp]

19 hours ago, deutscheben said:

 

 

Next is a delightfully small cladodont tooth.

 

 

This is a hybodontiform, maybe attributable to the recently-erected genus Diablodontus. You can tell based on the long narrow base with prominent porosite, the consistently decreasing size of the lateral cusps, the relatively small middle cusp, and the prominent crenulations on each cusp. 

[deutscheben]

10 minutes ago, jdp said:

This is a hybodontiform, maybe attributable to the recently-erected genus Diablodontus. You can tell based on the long narrow base with prominent porosite, the consistently decreasing size of the lateral cusps, the relatively small middle cusp, and the prominent crenulations on each cusp. 

Very cool, thank you! I had never really noticed before how different the root was from my other cladodont teeth.

[deutscheben]

 

4 hours ago, jdp said:

This is a hybodontiform, maybe attributable to the recently-erected genus Diablodontus. You can tell based on the long narrow base with prominent porosite, the consistently decreasing size of the lateral cusps, the relatively small middle cusp, and the prominent crenulations on each cusp. 

Thanks to your lead I did some research and found that the tooth may actually be a good match for the unpublished genus "Maiseyodus"- in the paper describing Diablodontus, they state that "Maiseyodus has three lateral cusps and Diablodontus has two." Although my tooth does have much narrower/pointier cusps than those shown for Maiseyodus. 

 

[jdp]

I think the actual crown shape might be more interpretable there. I'm pretty familiar with the hybodontiform teeth they're calling "Maiseyodus" and the crowns are really bulbous with swollen bases. These are essentially a crushing dentition halfway between more traditional hybodontiform teeth (like Hybodus or Diablodontus) and animals like Hamiltonichthys or Polyacrodus.

 

What I will say is that there is probably a lot more hybodontiform diversity in the late Carboniferous than has currently been described so it is possible that your tooth, and many others I've seen/collected/screenwashed, represent additional species or even genera. I'll also note that we have very few intact dentitions from these animals; we do have an intact dentition for Hamiltonichthys thanks to many beautifully-preserved fossils from the Hamilton Quarry, but there are a ton of isolated teeth throughout the North American record which are more difficult to attribute to anything in particular. It doesn't help that hybodontiforms seem to have been mostly estuarine and are therefore not represented in deepwater lagerstatten such as the Mecca Shale or Bear Gulch, nor are they well-represented in entirely freshwater lagerstatten such as Linton. So, we don't really have consistent skeletal records to compare to.

 

Lot of work to be done here.

[deutscheben]

I was reading about Hamiltonichthys as well thanks to your post in the other ID thread, what incredible specimens!
 

The urge to identify every find is strong, so I appreciate the reminder that there is much that is still undescribed out there. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. 

[fossilsonwheels]

Really interesting information in this thread. There have been some cool Paleozoic discussions lately and some cool teeth being found. 

[gieserguy]

Oh man these teeth are really something else. Beautiful finds, Ben! You’re making me want to go back out there, even if I was just there!

[deutscheben]

20 hours ago, fossilsonwheels said:

Really interesting information in this thread. There have been some cool Paleozoic discussions lately and some cool teeth being found. 

Thanks! I agree, there have been a profusion of Carboniferous shark posts lately, it’s been delightful to read.

19 hours ago, gieserguy said:

Oh man these teeth are really something else. Beautiful finds, Ben! You’re making me want to go back out there, even if I was just there!

Thanks a lot! I’m really itching to get out there myself, but I don’t know when I’ll have the chance. The next best thing is reading everyone’s reports, though. 

[deutscheben]

Well, nearly a year after my last post I was finally able to make it back to my favorite La Salle Limestone outcrop, and now 5 months later I have some pictures to share- everything is still a little slow these days.  I did not have any spectacular finds on this trip, but did get a few solid pieces. 

 

My best tooth is this Deltodus- it split down the middle as I was prepping it, but I was able to glue it back together and it is nearly complete. 

 

 

Up next is what I think is also Deltodus, but a different part of the dentition. This one also broke into several parts and had to be reassembled. 

 

 

 

This cladodont tooth was pretty smashed up when I found it, but there is still enough there to clearly tell what it is. 

 

 

 

Finally, I found this diminutive and mysterious tooth- it is about 2 mm long and very thin. The photo does not capture it well, but it is two-toned in color and has regular ridges or serrations along the visible edge. 

 

 

 

[minnbuckeye]

On 8/12/2017 at 3:03 PM, deutscheben said:

 

And here is the last tooth and also the least at only 5 mm across- another cladodont of some sort. Although it's tiny, it is mostly complete, and I find its minute details enchanting.   @deutscheben

 

 

I have been desperately attempting  to ID the  Chondrichthyan Teeth I have found in the Mississippian of Iowa and came across your posting. My understanding is that small Cladodus teeth like this will likely be Stethacanthus but take my suggestion with a grain of salt. By the way, nice tooth!!

Edited February 21, 2022 by minnbuckeye

[siteseer]

On 8/12/2017 at 1:03 PM, deutscheben said:

Thanks!

 

And finally, two more miniscule teeth. The first one is a mystery to me- it doesn't quite match any teeth I could find in my guidebooks, but it may just be a broken fragment. It is 6 mm across.

 

 

And here is the last tooth and also the least at only 5 mm across- another cladodont of some sort. Although it's tiny, it is mostly complete, and I find its minute details enchanting.

 

 

 

 

i think that first tooth has a chance of being an Orodus lateral/posterior tooth.

[deutscheben]

I posted the following teeth in my trip report for the La Salle Limestone roadcut that has been the source of most of these teeth last year http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/123819-sunny-day-in-the-la-salle-limestone/, but never shared them in this thread. 

 

First up is a tiny Ctenoptychius? - this partial crown is only 5 mm wide.  

 

 

Next is a mystery petalodont tooth of some sort. 

 

 

Follower by a diminutive crusher tooth:

 

 

 

This Glikmanius occidentalis appears to be close to 100% complete, but prep of the delicate portions is above my paygrade. I haven't had a chance to send it out yet, but I will hopefully get it professionally prepped later this year. 

 

 

 

 

Finally, I did prep this Deltoptychius out, but the block it was on split, resulting in the cracks on the left side. It's still a beautiful tooth, I think. 

 

 

 

As I have mentioned elsewhere on this site, I was able to collect for a little while last weekend, including around 10 more potential teeth (in other words, for some of them there is something fishy there, but I won't know what exactly until I prep more- many will probably only be very fragmentary). I will try to get some pictures of those I have substantially completed prepping and post them here soon. 

[deutscheben]

After a little more prepping this morning and some breaking down of the blocks they were in, I have a few tiny teeth to share. These were all collected last weekend.

 

First is the tiniest of all- this broken tooth is only 2-3 mm wide. I have absolutely no clue for an ID on this one, it’s quite unusual.

 

 

 

Next is an absolutely charming little crusher tooth. It’s simultaneously one of my smallest and most complete teeth of this type. I would say it is Deltodus-like, perhaps even that genus, but crusher teeth are so hard to pin down.

 

 

 

 

More to come later!

[deutscheben]

This next two partial teeth could perhaps be Ctenopetalus? 
 

 

 

 

 

I was also lucky enough to find this nearly complete Peripristis semicircularis, with only the tip broken. It is preserved with the concave lingual side exposed, and I believe this is a tooth from the lower jaw based on the reduced cusps. It’s possible the root may be present as well, but it would take a lot more prepping to get at it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, it’s not a tooth but it’s definitely from a chondrichthyan- this very partial spine. 
 

 

 

There are at least two more teeth that I have been prepping which appear to be mostly complete, but they still have a ways to go before they are done.

[deutscheben]

I was able to substantially complete prepping another Peripristis, this one from the upper jaw. Again, the specimen presents the lingual view and I have opted not to prep out the root at this time. I found this one as I was splitting a block with a smaller (and turned out to be only a small fragment of a) tooth on it to bring home, and unfortunately the right side of this Peripristis was lost. 

 

 

 

 

[Collector9658]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:30 PM, deutscheben said:

This next two partial teeth could perhaps be Ctenopetalus? 
 

 

 

 

 

I was also lucky enough to find this nearly complete Peripristis semicircularis, with only the tip broken. It is preserved with the concave lingual side exposed, and I believe this is a tooth from the lower jaw based on the reduced cusps. It’s possible the root may be present as well, but it would take a lot more prepping to get at it. 

 

 

 

 

 

Finally, it’s not a tooth but it’s definitely from a chondrichthyan- this very partial spine. 
 

 

 

There are at least two more teeth that I have been prepping which appear to be mostly complete, but they still have a ways to go before they are done.

Wow that spine is beautiful! Great Peripristis tooth also, looks similar to the last one I found. I'll have to keep living vicariously through posts like these until water is low enough that I can get back out there. Thanks for sharing.