possible sauropod vert?

[Haravex]

was sent these pictures by a Moroccan dealer i was wondering about it being a sauropod vertebrae since it has a very small foramne, any thoughts or input would be nice and if so could this be from the only described species rebbechasaurus ?

[JohnBrewer]

Oh wow! 

[Haravex]

any ideas on it John? as to me it does not look like the regular therapod vertebrae i am used to seeing.

[ynot]

@hxmendoza, @Andy, @Troodon

[JohnBrewer]

@LordTrilobite

[hxmendoza]

Need better pictures from several angles and showing the entire vertebra.

[Haravex]

These are the only photos the dealer sent, I believe he has sold it now but would have been nice to know about possible sauropods in that region.

[LordTrilobite]

Definitely a nice dinosaur vert. Hard to tell what from though. I think a side, front and top view at the very least are needed for a better ID. Looks similar to Theropod to me. And the ventral keel might mean Sigilmassasaurus as Spinosaurus doesn't have that on most vertebrae. But I'm not very familiar with dorsal Sauropod vertebrae. So yeah, nice piece, but it needs more photos.

[Haravex]

The dealer has already sold this piece and was just asking to see if it was possibly a sauropods vert, would love to find a specimen from kem kem possibly to donate or sell to a museum.

[Troodon]

@Haravex

I agree with LordTrilobite it actually looks like theropod vertebra but without side views it's difficult to tell with those partial images.  You also have to be real careful of composited spines so lots of photos are slways needed. 

There are currently two sauropods known from the Kem Kem basin,  Rebbachisaurus garasbae and an undescribed Titanosaurid.  Both of these are known from vertebrae do we have some info on what vertebrae they look like. 

 

Jeffrey A. Wilson & Ronan Allain (2015) Osteology of Rebbachisaurus
garasbae Lavocat, 1954, a diplodocoid (Dinosauria, Sauropoda) from the early Late
Cretaceous–aged Kem Kem beds of southeastern Morocco, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology,
35:4, e1000701, DOI: 10.1080/02724634.2014.1000701

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304214496_Evidence_of_a_derived_titanosaurian_Dinosauria_Sauropoda_in_the_Kem_Kem_beds_of_Morocco_with_comments_on_sauropod_paleoecology_in_the_Cretaceous_of_Africa

[Haravex]

Thanks troodon, the thing i can say about this seller is although he is more expensive (for Berber prices) non of his pieces are composites, and he normally sells as is due to his lack of prep knowledge (evident by the two spinosauride ribs i have).

[Troodon]

I'm not saying he's a problem just a caution to protect you.  I also wonder about anyone who sells Spinosaurid ribs, not sure I've ever seen one in a technical publication.  Not to say it does not exist but how would one go about identifying a Spinosaurid rib over a Carch or other theropod.   I'm just very skeptical about what sellers advertise from the Kem Kem because so little is known or published.   So much of what I see sold is inaccurate.

[Haravex]

I will get photographs of ribs I have tomorrow, I identified them as spinosauride, based upon the skeleton of suchomimius and looking at the rib section and looking at ribs from giganotosaurus and any known material from carcharadonatsaurus. http://360-grad-panorama.de/portfolio/dinosaurier-suchomimus-tenerensis-projekt-dino-ausstellung-braunschweig/ this gives a nice 360o view of the skeleton present.

[LordTrilobite]

Another comment about the vertebra. This looks like a dorsal vertebra. Though it's hard to tell from just these pictures. If it's Spinosauridae, the front of the centrum needs to be convex, not concave. If it's not convex, it's not Spinosauridae. But we can't see that right now as both the first two photos are showing the back of the vertebra.

 

And ribs are notirously difficult to identify, even in well studied areas. And Kem Kem is poorly studied. There's not a lot of material on both Spinosaurus and Carcharodontosaurus. but yes, looking at Suchomimus and giganotosaurus would definitely help. Ichtyovenator might also be a good reference as it includes a full cervical vertebrae series as well as a few cervical ribs.