ID oxfordian ammonites from Podleze, Poland

[KatzFeldkurat]

Hi all,

I am hoping to get some help, identifying some ammonites and a nautiloid (?) from Podleze, Poland.

 

The locality is oxfordian and a famous place where you can find a lot of Perisphinctid ammonites.

 

I am new to this locality and because I do not know polish language I only find a few paper on this locality, but they are only dealing with the Perisphinctes ammonites.

 

Here is the section of the locality, the fossils are found in 2 layers of 10cm thick glauconitic marl.

 

 

Here are the pieces:

I will gladly send bigger or other pictures if needed, but I reached the upload limit.

 

The bigger coin is 23mm in diameter

 

 

Thank you for any help!

 

Kind regards.

 

 

 

[Ludwigia]

Nice finds! Here's my 2 cents worth. I'll give you what I think is probably the genus.

1. Orthosphinctes

2. Ochetoceras

3. Campylites ?

4. Taramelliceras ?

5. Holcophylloceras

6. Pseudaganides

7. Euaspidoceras

8. Perisphinctes

 

[KatzFeldkurat]

13 minutes ago, Ludwigia said:

Nice finds! Here's my 2 cents worth. I'll give you what I think is probably the genus.

1. Orthosphinctes

2. Ochetoceras

3. Campylites ?

4. Taramelliceras ?

5. Holcophylloceras

6. Pseudaganides

7. Euaspidoceras

8. Perisphinctes

 

 

Thank you really much for your two cents! With them I could began searching the internet

 

1. Orthosphinctes seems legit, but I found some Perisphinctes that looks the same (least for me)

2. Ochetoceras? On the pictures I found, there are a more prominent line on the side, I did not see it on my specimen, but the keel is similar.  I will post better pictures of it!

3. Campylites? I did not find any good result on google, Is this name correct? This specimen has no ornamentation, just disc like form.  I will post better pictures of it!

4. Taramelliceras? I found pictures of Taramelliceras are similar to my piece, but the keel is different, I will post better pictures of it!

5. Holcophylloceras seems legit, but it is not the best preserved specimen..

6. Pseudaganides seems right!

7. Euaspidoceras seems right too! This was a specimen, that even our host did not seen from this locality!

8. I found a paper about the Perisphinctes ammonites from Podleze, there are at least 10 species, so I will determine this one if its possible..

 

Now If possible I want to know the species, so If anyone could show me a good paper or got some info on this locality, please share it with me!

Thank you!

Kind regards.

 

 

[Ludwigia]

1. To my knowledge, the ribs on Perisphinctes do not trifurcate on the outer venter or have constrictions as in this specimen, which is why I chose Orthosphinctes.

2. I'm pretty sure about this one. The sculpture is not always that prominent depending on the preservation.

3. Yes, the name is correct. It's one of the few platycone ammonites at this level. Another possibility is Trimarginites, but they are usually smaller.

4. You're right about the keel, but there are some species without nodes. I'm however not absolutely sure about this, hence the question mark.

The Euaspidoceras is a great find!

I'm afraid I can't help with species, since I'm not familiar with the Polish ammonite fauna.

[KatzFeldkurat]

On 9/18/2017 at 11:05 PM, Ludwigia said:

1. To my knowledge, the ribs on Perisphinctes do not trifurcate on the outer venter or have constrictions as in this specimen, which is why I chose Orthosphinctes.

2. I'm pretty sure about this one. The sculpture is not always that prominent depending on the preservation.

3. Yes, the name is correct. It's one of the few platycone ammonites without sculpture at this level. Another possibility is Trimarginites, but they are usually smaller.

4. You're right about the keel, but there are some species without nodes. I'm however not absolutely sure about this, hence the question mark.

The Euaspidoceras is a great find!

I'm afraid I can't help with species, since I'm not familiar with the Polish ammonite fauna.

 

Big thanks for your detailed explanation!  It was a great help to me!

Now the fourth specimen is the only question left, but as I looked them over, I think Taramelliceras what I will go with.

 

The exact species names will remain as questions, but I contacted a Polish collector. She did not replied so far, but if there is some progress, I will post it here.

 

Kind regards.

[doushantuo]

[RJB]

  Nice finds!

 

RB

[KatzFeldkurat]

Thank you all!

I began prepping the pieces further and I will post pictures later!

On the Taramelliceras, I found the ornamentation, only the broken part did not have it, one row of nodes along the keel. So no question marks left. Thank you @Ludwigia for the ID! Otherwise I would have left this piece unprepared.

 

The Campylites will have a nice keel, I will post pictures of it, I hope it will help to be sure about it. I think I found some other Orthosphinctes too, so in a few days I will post them.

 

Kind regards.

[Ludwigia]

Glad to have been of service

[KatzFeldkurat]

Here are some new pictures of the Taramelliceras sp. and the Campylities sp. during preparation.

 

Keel of the Campylites:

 

The lobes of the Campylites:

 

Taramelliceras prep near completion:

 

The keel of the piece:

 

Looks good, partially shelled side:

 

This Taramelliceras is my current favorite ammonite, and I am really glad that I posted it here and did not left the way it was.

 

Kind regards.

[Monica]

Beautiful ammonites! 

[Ludwigia]

They are coming along well. The quality is quite good.

[KatzFeldkurat]

On 9/22/2017 at 11:48 AM, Monica said:

Beautiful ammonites! 

Thank you!

 

On 9/22/2017 at 3:02 PM, Ludwigia said:

They are coming along well. The quality is quite good.

I like the quality too  They are all partially shelled, but its always fifty-fifty, because the stone is weathered, and a lot of specimen is eroded, and you got a half with visible lobes or shell with ornamentation, and got an other half eroded into clay... I tried restoring some parts with plaster and coloring, but its not to my taste.

 

I will post some pictures later, but its more fossil preparation than ID

 

Kind regards.

 

 

[KatzFeldkurat]

 

Here is the finished Taramelliceras.

 

And some new specimens:

I think they are all some Orthosphinctes sp (?) What is your opinions?

 

This white one is from the same locality, but from a different layer (above the others some 20 meters)

 

 

2 Orthosphinctes (maybe the same species?)

 

Kind regards.

 

[Ludwigia]

1 hour ago, KatzFeldkurat said:

And some new specimens:

I think they are all some Orthosphinctes sp (?) What is your opinions?

 

This white one is from the same locality, but from a different layer (above the others some 20 meters)

 

Kind regards.

 

The last 2 could be the species Orthosphinctes tizianiformis, which would place them in the lower bimmatum zone. The white one looks quite similar and just might be a variation of Orthosphinctes tiziani from the bauhini horizon of the same zone (normally you should be able to see where the ribs split on the inner whorls), which would fit with your description, although the difference in height is rather 10 than 20 meters in southern Germany. On the other hand, I may be completely wrong here, since you indicated that you've been digging in the antescedens zone. I'll have to check this out again.

Edit: I should have paid more attention to the stratigraphy! I now would rather think that the last 2 could be Perisphinctes (Arisphinctes) paranderi and the white one could then be Orthosphinctes tizianiformis if it really comes from the bimammatum zone. It's not easy identifying these things without paying attention to the exact stratigraphy, since many forms repeat themselves over time with slight variations.

 

[KatzFeldkurat]

2 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

The last 2 could be the species Orthosphinctes tizianiformis, which would place them in the lower bimmatum zone. The white one looks quite similar and just might be a variation of Orthosphinctes tiziani from the bauhini horizon of the same zone (normally you should be able to see where the ribs split on the inner whorls), which would fit with your description, although the difference in height is rather 10 than 20 meters in southern Germany. On the other hand, I may be completely wrong here, since you indicated that you've been digging in the antescedens zone. I'll have to check this out again.

Edit: I should have paid more attention to the stratigraphy! I now would rather think that the last 2 could be Perisphinctes (Arisphinctes) paranderi and the white one could then be Orthosphinctes tizianiformis if it really comes from the bimammatum zone. It's not easy identifying these things without paying attention to the exact stratigraphy, since many forms repeat themselves over time with slight variations.

 

Thank you really much!  

Yes I believe that the section that I inserted into the first post is correct, and the pieces are from the antescendens zone.

 

All info came from this paper:

 

Taphonomic differentiation of Oxfordian ammonites from the Cracow Upland, Poland
Agata Jurkowska • Bogusław Kołodziej 2012

Quote

Glauconitic marls (Podłeze) (Figs. 3, 8c, d)
Ammonites are abundant, represented mostly by Perisphinctidae,
Oppeliidae and rare Cardioceratidae (Hoffmann
1983; Kin 2008). Ammonites attain diameters of up
to 25 cm. Because the present state of outcrops is poor, and
because most of the specimens studied by us from museum
are devoid of surrounding deposit, some information below
dealing with macroscopic features of ammonites and host
deposits are taken from Hoffmann (1983). The specimens
available to us were well preserved, but Hoffmann (1983)
has recognized that ammonites are commonly compacted,
and large forms are usually fragmented, while small ones
are well preserved. Ammonites are preserved as internal
moulds with neomorphic calcite shells. Sediment filling
chambers is similar to the host sediment. Ammonites are
associated with numerous belemnites, less commonly
brachiopods, bivalves, sponges and single gastropods
(Hoffmann 1983). Glauconitic marls analysed in thin sections
are mostly peloidal wackestones with abundant
planktonic foraminifera, visible mostly under CL microscope
(Kołodziej et al. 2011). Other foraminifera and
sponge spicules occur rarely. Microbial crusts are absent on
ammonite shells, or, if present, microbial crusts with poorly
defined lamination occur on single (Fig. 3a) or both sides
of specimens. Hoffmann (1983) observed microbial
encrustations, mostly on specimens from the upper part of
the analysed marls. Some ammonites were also encrusted
on both sides by serpulids and bryozoans. Two specimens
from Hoffmann’s collection are clearly corroded on one
side (Fig. 3b).
No microbialites were found within ammonite shells,
except for well-developed dendritic microbial structures
(Frutexites Maslov) recognized in two chambers of two
specimens (Fig. 3c). The first chamber was partly filled
with peloidal wackestone. In the second one Frutexites was
embedded in matrix. About 40 % of shells contain sparfilled
chambers, but rarely more than 1/4 of chambers in
one phragmocone. The cement consists of three or two
generations. Usually thin coating of siliceous cement
occurs as the first generation. Two other generations consist
of radiaxial and blocky calcite (Fig. 3f, h). Geopetal
structures were also recognized.
The neomorphic calcite shells show relics of the original
structure (Fig. 3d, e, g). Double-layer shell structure
unequivocally indicates that the shells were not dissolved
as observed commonly in other facies, but are built by
neomorphic calcite spar. Locally, the shell shows microlamination
(Fig. 3g). Usually the calcite crystals building
the septa differ from those in the wall (Fig. 3f), but still in
some of septa there are relics of their original structure
(Fig. 3g). This indicates that at least some, if not most,
septa were not dissolved, but aragonite has been transformed
neomorphically into calcite. Very rare and only
some skeletal elements were locally dissolved, and moldic
porosity was filled with micrite. Siliceous cement usually
occurs as the first cement generation (if there is no sedimentary
filling), but ammonite shells are very rarely, and
only locally, silicified. Clear differences in wall ornamentation
were observed in some ammonites. Inner surface of
wall of outer whorls reveals ‘‘smoothed’’ ornamentation
(Fig. 3d, e). Under CL, ammonite shells show bright red–
orange luminescence.
Phosphatized siphonal tubes were recognized in 15
specimens of oppeliids from Podłeze and Młynka. They
were attached to the wall or fragmented (Fig. 8c). SEM
observations of seven tubes (including those from Młynka)
revealed hollow globules (bacterial structures?) within and
on the outer surface of three tubes (Jurkowska 2008)
(Fig. 8d). Energy-dispersive spectroscopy (EDS) analyses
revealed that tubes are composed of francolite (calcium
phosphate).

 

This is the only info that I got, sadly no pictures about specimens, it is not a taxonomy/biostratigraphy related article.

 

 

Here is some pictures about the other locality from where the white one (Orthosphinctes tizianiformis) came. (maybe it helps)

 

The height of the walls is about 8-10 meters, and from the other locality maybe above 10 meters too (maybe more) That is why I am said 20 meters. At the other locality (antescendens zone) this white platy limestone is soft and eroded, here its clinking like pottery or glass. I have found ammonites in the whole open section, but they are rare and 90% in bad shape. There is no such layer like in the antescendens zone locality, where they are in 2 distinct 5-10cm thick layer and very abundant in it.

 

 

 

Kind regards.

 

 

 

EDIT:

I have found another paper, not from this locality, but its about middle oxfordian!

 

LIDIA MALINOWSKA
THE MIDDLE OXFORDIAN PERISPHINCTIDAE OF ZAWODZIE NEAR CZESTOCHOWA (POLAND)

Quote

STRATIGRAPHIC REMARKS

The limestones outcropped at Zawodzie were studied by many authors

(Zejszner, 1884, 1869; Bukowski, 1887; Koroniewicz & Rehbinder, 1913;

Siemiradzki, 1922; Wisniewska, 1932; Premik, 1933; Rozycki, 1948, 1953;

Malinowska, 1963). Rozycki (l.c.) assigns them to the Upper Argovian.

It has recently been shown by Brochwicz-Lewinski (1970) that the

limestones from Zawodzie are of Middle and Upper Oxfordian age.

In the present paper, a particular attention is called to the ammonites

of the family Perisphinctidae characteristic of the Middle Oxfordian.

As follows from a series of hitherto published papers, only few ammonites

of the 'famlly Perisphinctidae were cited or described from the Middle

Oxfordian deposits of Zawodzie.

 

These are:

Perisphinctes lucigensis Favre,

P. promiscuus Bukowski,

P. dunikowskii Siemiradzki,

P. wartae Bukowski,

P. plicatilis (Sowerby),

P. martelli (Oppel),

P. convolutus (Quenstedt).

 

Also know were the species:

Peltoceras transversarium (Quenstedt),

Euaspidoceras oegir (Oppel),

E. babeaui (d'Orbigny),

Ochetoceras canaliculatum (Buch),

Trimarginites arolicus (Oppel),

Taramelliceras callicerum (Oppel),

Phylloceras sp. and

Cardioceras alternans (Buch) 1.

 

Poland's Middle Oxfordian deposits .are on the whole developed in the

carbonate and siltstone-marly facies (Malinowska, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1971).

A stratigraphic division, based in the case of the carbonate facies on

ammonites of the family Perisphinctidae and in the case of the siltstonemarly

facies on those of the family Cardioceratidae, was prepared by the

present writer. A uniform division, suggested by her, was postulated in her

previous paper (1968). Two zones of the Middle Oxfordian, the upper one

with Perisphinctes wartae and Amoeboceras alternans and the lower one

with Perisphinctes chloroolithicus and Cardioceras tenuiserratum are

represented at Zawodzie.

Within the Middle Oxfordian deposits, the ammonites of the family

Perisphinctidae are mostly grouped in the upper zone with Perisphinctes

wartae and Amoeboceras alternans. In addition, there are species with

a more extensive range of occurrence, including both the upper and lower

zone of the Middle Oxfordian. Furthermore, there are also species whose

range is restricted to the lower zone only, that is that with Perisphinctes

chloroolithicus and Cardioceras tenuiserratum

 

Is that correct, if I think I found some species name here?

 

2 - Ochetoceras canaliculatum (Buch) ??? looks similar (at least to me) to Trimarginites arolicus (Oppel),

4 - Taramelliceras callicerum (Oppel),

7 - Euaspidoceras oegir

1 - Perisphinctes (Arisphinctes) paranderi

 

Kind regards

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by KatzFeldkurat
New info on the topic

[Ludwigia]

It looks like you are now well on your way to getting some species identified. I have based my ids on my knowledge of the southern German fauna. It appears to me, as I was surmising, that the Polish fauna and lithology, with which I am not familiar, differs somewhat from ours, so I guess you're on your own from now on. Have fun!

[KatzFeldkurat]

11 hours ago, Ludwigia said:

It looks like you are now well on your way to getting some species identified. I have based my ids on my knowledge of the southern German fauna. It appears to me, as I was surmising, that the Polish fauna and lithology, with which I am not familiar, differs somewhat from ours, so I guess you're on your own from now on. Have fun!

Thank you for your help!  I will try identifying the rest.

 

If it is the final list, I am quite satisfied with the results! 1 week earlier I didn't even know the genuses! I hope I will find the exact names of the different Perisphinctidae, but I think I have to learn a little Polish  

 

So far the list of species:

1. Perisphinctes (Arisphinctes) paranderi

2. Ochetoceras canaliculatum (Buch) 

3. Campylites sp.

4. Taramelliceras callicerum (Oppel),

5. Holcophylloceras sp.

6. Pseudaganides sp.

7. Euaspidoceras oegir

8. Perisphinctes plicatilis (?)

9. Trimarginites arolicus (Oppel)

 

1 new species I found yesterday among the lot:

This could be the 9th species, Trimarginites arolicus (Oppel)