Weird Kem Kem Vertebra

[LordTrilobite]

I bought this vertebra a while back from our favourite auction site. Initially I bought it just because it looked like a nice vertebra, and I didn't think much of it.

 

But when I had the real fossil in my hands I noticed that it's quite bizarre. I've never seen anything like it. So far everyone I've asked was stumped as well (though some suggested it might be croc).

So I was wondering if someone here maybe had an idea. @Troodon maybe?

It's a fairly nice centrum of a caudal vertebra, as the bottom does show some worn articulation surfaces for a chevron. And even though the neural arch is mostly missing, there doesn't seem to be an attachment for a lateral process. So I'm guessing it's pretty far down the tail of the animal. Though not as far down the tail since there is a chevron attachment.

 

Now, there are mainly two weird aspects this vertebra has. For a caudal vertebra, the neural canal is really wide. The neural canal is also excavated a little into the centrum so that both the front and back of the centrum that gives it sort of "ears" on the top of the articulation surface.

Then there is a kind of pinched area on the sides of the centrum.  Looking at the sides of the centrum, the bottom middle is a lot wider than in the area dead centre. Here there the centrum is laterally pinched, making this area as thin as the neural canal is wide. So the centrum is maybe a centimeter thick in this area. Then immediately above it where a subtle shadow can be seen just below where the neural arch starts there is a wide horizontal bulge, making it the widest part of the vertebra right above the thinnest part.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

[Haravex]

This is so very similar to mine it would be nice to find an answer but in my thread, troodon said already that he suspected crocodile form.

[Troodon]

Traveling will check it out this weekend

[LordTrilobite]

13 hours ago, Haravex said:

This is so very similar to mine it would be nice to find an answer but in my thread, troodon said already that he suspected crocodile form.

You mean the small caudal vertebra you posted in your thread with lots of Kem Kem bones? Wasn't that one very different?

9 hours ago, Troodon said:

Traveling will check it out this weekend

Thanks.

[sseth]

I am not sure on the ID either.  I have several dozen similar vertebrae from Kem Kem.  These little verts from Kem Kem are something I collect and there are a lot of strange ones that do not quite fit into common categories.  I will share a few pictures I have.

[jpc]

I am thinking croc caudal.  The thinning above the base of the centrum sold me on this ID.  Further down in the tail of some Eocene crocs I have collected, the thinness becomes an incredibly thin sheet of bone.  

[LordTrilobite]

That's certainly informative, thanks. Is it similar in just the thin pinched centrum middle? Or the wide neural canal and wide top as well?

[jpc]

I am home now and holding an Eocene croc caudal in my grubby little paw, and it is tough to say about the wide neural canal cuz mine has the neural arch included, but yeah, it loos a lot like yours.   Mine was found in a pile of croc and croc only bones and scutes.  I would be confident Iding yours as a croc caudal.

[Troodon]

Just got in from taking some pictures at the Natural History Museum of Utah of the late cretaceous Croc Deinosuchus hatcheri.   Took some closeups of the tail and it seems to support @jpc ID of a caudal from a Croc.  Did not think my reference photos would come in handy this quick.

 

[LordTrilobite]

13 hours ago, jpc said:

I am home now and holding an Eocene croc caudal in my grubby little paw, and it is tough to say about the wide neural canal cuz mine has the neural arch included, but yeah, it loos a lot like yours.   Mine was found in a pile of croc and croc only bones and scutes.  I would be confident Iding yours as a croc caudal.

Thanks that's pretty useful. Too bad there's not a whole lot known about Kem Kem yet so I'll just label it as an undeterminate croc.

 

12 hours ago, Troodon said:

Just got in from taking some pictures at the Natural History Museum of Utah of the late cretaceous Croc Deinosuchus hatcheri.   Took some closeups of the tail and it seems to support @jpc ID of a caudal from a Croc.  Did not think my reference photos would come in handy this quick.

Looking at that Deinosuchus tail I honestly don't really see the resemblance. In terms ot profile the more anterior vertebrae do seem to have a similar shape, but they have large lateral processes, while my vertebra seems to lack any lateral processes while still haviing the fat profile. I also don't really see the same "pinch" on these vertebrae. Very good clear photos though, thanks.

 

Perhaps my photos aren't that clear since they only show right angles. So here are a few more photos that better show the thin middle pinch and the lateral expansion towards the top.

 

[sixgill pete]

Giving this thread a bump. I have no idea as to the ID of this vert, but would love to see a good ID on it. I will add it does not look like any of the croc verts I have seen or found, including Deinosuchus rugosus.

 

@SailingAlongToo  any thoughts on this vert?

[LordTrilobite]

Well since @jpc seemed pretty sure it's croc I've labeled it as such for the time being. Though I'd be interested to see how well those Eocene crocs verts match up. I personally don't have a whole lot of experience with crocs. But the general consensus does seem to tentatively lean towards croc.

 

Another thing that might not be that clear in the photos is that even though the neural arch is mostly gone, there's just enough left on the one side to tell where the wall of the neural arch starts and stops.

I've made a quick drawing of how the neural arch connects, which the black lines showing the outline.

[Jesuslover340]

See page 36 on the pdf version of this publication:

http://www.calvertmarinemuseum.com/276/CMM-Publications

[sixgill pete]

@Jesuslover340 thanks for the link. I will say I did not even think about the vert being a caudel vert that it would be elongated and not adhere to the shape I associate with crocodilians. After looking at the vert on the page 36, I agree that it could definitely be from a large croc.

[LordTrilobite]

22 hours ago, Jesuslover340 said:

See page 36 on the pdf version of this publication:

http://www.calvertmarinemuseum.com/276/CMM-Publications

That's a pretty useful link. It looks like some of those caudal vertebrae in those images are paper thin. Mine isn't as thin, but I can see where you're coming from.

[Jesuslover340]

Just now, LordTrilobite said:

That's a pretty useful link. It looks like some of those caudal vertebrae in those images are paper thin. Mine isn't as thin, but I can see where you're coming from.

I have found it useful enough to print it off Of course, there will be variatioms across species and sizes, but it gives a general picture.

[sseth]

Here is a pic with a few of the more strange verts I have from Kem Kem.  Most of them have no ID.  Just snapped this quick with my phone so the quality is not great.  Lots of strange things yet to be identified in Kem Kem.

[LordTrilobite]

I have a few verts that look similar to some of those as well. But none of those seem to match the same weird suite of characters this vertebra has here. Only maybe that row of caudal vertebrae in the middle seems to come close.