Carcharodon hubbelli

[Fossil'n'Roll]

Recently, I've taken an interest in transitional shark teeth. I found this the other day listed as Carcharodon hubbelli from Peru. I'm very interested if the ID is correct. It is certainly closer to C. carcharias than I./C. hastalis, but hubbelli does seem plausible to me. Just want to be sure before I buy it.

 

[Miocene_Mason]

Im no expert in this area, but the serrations are a bit large. His one has a shape similar to hastilis though. It's hard to give a proper ID on these because they are transitional. Here's a picture of one

good luck, these are rare and expensive (I'm still looking for one myself)

[Fossil'n'Roll]

Thanks for the input, guys. I gave it some thought, and since the price is actually more in line with what I would expect for a Peruvian C. carcharias, I just bought it. The price was either great (if hubbelli) or reasonable (if carcharias) and anything from Peru is cool, anyway. I'll label it as questionable for now.

[sagacious]

17 hours ago, Fossil'n'Roll said:

Thanks for the input, guys. I gave it some thought, and since the price is actually more in line with what I would expect for a Peruvian C. carcharias, I just bought it. The price was either great (if hubbelli) or reasonable (if carcharias) and anything from Peru is cool, anyway. I'll label it as questionable for now.

 

On the OP's tooth, the serrations do not continue to the apex of the crown, and the serrations are angled at about 35-45* to the edge of the crown. 

 

Carcharodon hastalis is unserrated, and modern adult C carcharias teeth bear serrations perpendicular to the edge, which continue from the base to the very apex of the crown.  The question tooth is the transitional species, C hubbelli. 

 

One can also see these diagnostic features on the C hubbelli reference tooth photo provided above by WhodamanHD. 

[Fossil'n'Roll]

Good to know the ID is correct. Thank you.

[britishcanuk]

It's a textbook hubbelli, Sagacious is absolutely correct. C. hubbelli transitioned in carcharias so the exact point atbwhich the species changed is subjective. That's the problem with evolution and taxonomy, they don't fit as neatly as we'd like into the boxes we made up for them! Here's some of my hubs...

[britishcanuk]

Some more...

[Miocene_Mason]

Wow @britishcanuk, that's a ton, how long did it take you to amass that?

[britishcanuk]

I even put this Chilean tooth in my hubbelli case because hastalis doesn't have wavy edges like this, thought it would have to be a very early example!

[britishcanuk]

This is another example of a hubbelli from South Africa, I don't know that I've ever seen another example from there. This is one of my favourite teeth.

[Miocene_Mason]

Just now, britishcanuk said:

This is another example of a hubbelli from South Africa, I don't know that I've ever seen another example from there. This is one of my favourite teeth.

I've only ever heard of an escheri coming from out there, nice acquisition!

[britishcanuk]

3 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

I've only ever heard of an escheri coming from out there, nice acquisition!

I've go a few nice escheri teeth and they are definitely different. I asked some of the European  guys who see escheris all the time and they unanimously said it's a hub. I don't question those guys lol

[Miocene_Mason]

2 hours ago, britishcanuk said:

I've go a few nice escheri teeth and they are definitely different. I asked some of the belgium guys who see escheris all the time and they unanimously said it's a hub. I don't question those guys lol

I'm not questioning that this ones a hub, just never heard of one from there! I'm probably going to get one of those escheri teeth off I site I found soon. Sorry to the mods for going a bit off topic, but are escheri teeth an offshoot of hastilis (an evolutionary dead end) or a transitional species between hastilis and hubbeli? Still confused there, will matter when making an evolution set.

[britishcanuk]

42 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

I'm not questioning that this ones a hub, just never heard of one from there! I'm probably going to get one of those escheri teeth off I site I found soon. Sorry to the mods for going a bit off topic, but are escheri teeth an offshoot of hastilis (an evolutionary dead end) or a transitional species between hastilis and hubbeli? Still confused there, will matter when making an evolution set.

C. escheri are a distinct species that co-evolved with hubbelli and seem to have been confined to the Atlantic. They are narrower and the serrations are a little different, more like little lumps along the edge. They never developed full serrations, despite having plenty of time to do so. They existed with these "proto-serrations" for a couple million years relatively unchanged and then disappeared. Here are some escheri teeth from the Netherlands.

[Fossil-Hound]

@britishcanuk those are some nice transitional teeth. I just need an auriculatus to complete a Meg transitional plaque.

[siteseer]

22 hours ago, britishcanuk said:

It's a textbook hubbelli, Sagacious is absolutely correct. C. hubbelli transitioned in carcharias so the exact point atbwhich the species changed is subjective. That's the problem with evolution and taxonomy, they don't fit as neatly as we'd like into the boxes we made up for them! Here's some of my hubs...

 

That tooth at the roughly 12 o'clock position has an unusual shape.  Both cutting edges follow along a concave outline that becomes convex before meeting at the tip.  I think that's a first upper anterior.

 

I have seen a few C. hastalis uppers with cutting edges that are both convex, both edges flaring out to some extent in the middle, forming a broader spearhead shape.  

 

Jess

 

 

[sagacious]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 4:29 PM, britishcanuk said:

This is another example of a hubbelli from South Africa, I don't know that I've ever seen another example from there. This is one of my favourite teeth.

This is certainly a beauty of a tooth.  For what it's worth, it appears to be an Isurus escheri lower lateral tooth, and not a Carcharodon hubbelli tooth.

 

The tooth above appears to show a uniformly crenulated edge.  The crenulations start at the base and continue to the apex of the crown, which is typical -- virtually to the point of diagnostic -- of I escheri.  This differs from the minute/variable serrations that often do not extend to the crown apex on C hubbelli.  

 

Based on fossil teeth found in Europe, I escheri evidently survived from the Middle Miocene into the early Pliocene in the Atlantic, so crenulate I escheri  found along with fully perpendicularly-serrate C carcharias teeth in South African sediments argues temporally against this tooth being 'transitional,' and in that sense, argues against it being C hubbelli.  While there has been an abundance of Carcharodon teeth found in South Africa, I am unaware of transitional or C hubbelli teeth being found there.  

 

To my knowledge, the I escheri tooth-form doesn't appear to become serrate over time -- it was a distinct species, not a short-lived chronospecies, with the crenulations seeming to persist largely unchanged from the Middle Miocene to the early Pliocene.  

 

The C hubbelli teeth in my collection from the West Coast of North America often differ, to a degree, from the same species teeth collected from the West Coast of South America.  In the same way, it would not surprise me if I escheri teeth from the Netherlands differed minutely from those found south of the equator, and that may help explain any equivocation about it's identity.  These evolutionary, morphological, temporal, and geographic factors seem to converge to support an identity of I escheri for this tooth.

 

Regards,

Eric

[britishcanuk]

On 2017-10-23 at 2:00 AM, sagacious said:

This is certainly a beauty of a tooth.  For what it's worth, it appears to be an Isurus escheri lower lateral tooth, and not a Carcharodon hubbelli tooth.

 

The tooth above appears to show a uniformly crenulated edge.  The crenulations start at the base and continue to the apex of the crown, which is typical -- virtually to the point of diagnostic -- of I escheri.  This differs from the minute/variable serrations that often do not extend to the crown apex on C hubbelli.  

 

Based on fossil teeth found in Europe, I escheri evidently survived from the Middle Miocene into the early Pliocene in the Atlantic, so crenulate I escheri  found along with fully perpendicularly-serrate C carcharias teeth in South African sediments argues temporally against this tooth being 'transitional,' and in that sense, argues against it being C hubbelli.  While there has been an abundance of Carcharodon teeth found in South Africa, I am unaware of transitional or C hubbelli teeth being found there.  

 

To my knowledge, the I escheri tooth-form doesn't appear to become serrate over time -- it was a distinct species, not a short-lived chronospecies, with the crenulations seeming to persist largely unchanged from the Middle Miocene to the early Pliocene.  

 

The C hubbelli teeth in my collection from the West Coast of North America often differ, to a degree, from the same species teeth collected from the West Coast of South America.  In the same way, it would not surprise me if I escheri teeth from the Netherlands differed minutely from those found south of the equator, and that may help explain any equivocation about it's identity.  These evolutionary, morphological, temporal, and geographic factors seem to converge to support an identity of I escheri for this tooth.

 

Regards,

Eric

Some good points, many of which I made above. As far as the identity of the above tooth goes,  I’ve had this discussion with several other folks, all of which know more than I do, and the consensus was hubbelli for the following reasons;

- it’s to broad for escheri

-it’s too symmetrical for escheri

-escheri has only been found in Europe.

 

I have several escheri teeth and several hubbelli teeth from Chile and Peru, I have to say that this one looks more like hubbelli to me. This Chilean hub has similar uniform serrations along the entire edge of the blade, as in the South African tooth. It will remain in my hubbelli case for now.

[sagacious]

On ‎10‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:04 PM, britishcanuk said:

I have several escheri teeth and several hubbelli teeth from Chile and Peru, I have to say that this one looks more like hubbelli to me. This Chilean hub has similar uniform serrations along the entire edge of the blade, as in the South African tooth. It will remain in my hubbelli case for now.

 

Excellent, it's always helpful to have several teeth available for comparison purposes.  

 

It's nice to see interest in these teeth, and to see people progressing with their collections of transitional teeth.  Over the years, I have been fortunate to have collected nearly two thousand C hubbelli teeth, with specimens ranging from tiny neonate teeth to large teeth.  Understandably, I hold to my own experience when it comes to comparison/ID of these teeth. 

 

 

[Miocene_Mason]

2 minutes ago, sagacious said:

 

Excellent, it's always helpful to have several teeth available for comparison purposes.  

 

It's nice to see interest in these teeth, and to see people progressing with their collections of transitional teeth.  Over the years, I have been fortunate to have collected nearly two thousand C hubbelli teeth, with specimens ranging from tiny neonate teeth to large teeth.  Understandably, I hold to my own experience when it comes to comparison/ID of these teeth. 

 

 

Two Thousand! Wow! And I have trouble finding one! You should definitely post some pictures of these so,time, I’d at least be interested to see them.

[britishcanuk]

9 hours ago, sagacious said:

 

Excellent, it's always helpful to have several teeth available for comparison purposes.  

 

It's nice to see interest in these teeth, and to see people progressing with their collections of transitional teeth.  Over the years, I have been fortunate to have collected nearly two thousand C hubbelli teeth, with specimens ranging from tiny neonate teeth to large teeth.  Understandably, I hold to my own experience when it comes to comparison/ID of these teeth. 

 

 

I would love to see some symmetrical escheri teeth if you have any of those. It seems like they always bend one way or the other. I also echo whodamanHD in his wish to see some of your collection! Cheers.

[sagacious]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 1:13 PM, britishcanuk said:

I would love to see some symmetrical escheri teeth if you have any of those. It seems like they always bend one way or the other. I also echo whodamanHD in his wish to see some of your collection! Cheers.

There's the rub, right?  C hubbelli can be found in decent numbers where it exists.  

 

Commercial teeth simply don't tell the whole story.  I have quite a few C hubbelli teeth that don't look like the 'classic' commercial upper anterior hubbelli tooth.  The upper teeth of I escheri are commonly -- but not always -- distally-angled, with the lower teeth generally being upright and symmetrical.  I suspect the misapprehension stems from the fact that the question tooth is unambiguously a lower lateral tooth.  It's the upper I escheri teeth that more often seem to bend one way or the other. 

 

The Elasmo site mentions anecdotal reports of I escheri teeth in the Upper Calvert - Lower Choptank Formations in Maryland.  A search for "escheri" on this forum will return a number of photographs of finely serrated or crenulated upper and lower teeth, both sometimes symmetrical, found on both the US East Coast and also in Western Europe.  On it's face, these reports would appear to extend the range significantly.

 

Below is a discussion from this forum, and a photo of an artificial (assembled) tooth set of I escheri, reproduced here, which shows I escheri lowers that are upright and symmetrical.  Allowing for 3 anterior lower files in the tooth set below, lower lateral 1 is a virtually perfect match with your tooth.  

 

I can find no support for C hubbelli from the Eastern Atlantic basin, although such a thought is interesting.  Regards.

 

 

[sagacious]

On ‎10‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 3:30 AM, WhodamanHD said:

Two Thousand! Wow! And I have trouble finding one! You should definitely post some pictures of these so,time, I’d at least be interested to see them.

It's simply a coincidence of geology and stratigraphy in my case.  These teeth are found in certain formations in Peru, Chile, Japan, Mexico, and California -- and I live in California.  C hubbelli is most of what I find; perpendicularly-serrate C carcharias and unserrated C hastalis  are much less common in my area. 

[Miocene_Mason]

37 minutes ago, sagacious said:

It's simply a coincidence of geology and stratigraphy in my case.  These teeth are found in certain formations in Peru, Chile, Japan, Mexico, and California -- and I live in California.  C hubbelli is most of what I find; perpendicularly-serrate C carcharias and unserrated C hastalis  are much less common in my area. 

That's cool! I'm curious, what formation is this? When I said finding, I meant for sale because I doubt I'd ever find one at the cliffs, two early for them. I'm trying to create a nice evolution set but specimens and information on this species is rare.

[sagacious]

5 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

That's cool! I'm curious, what formation is this? When I said finding, I meant for sale because I doubt I'd ever find one at the cliffs, two early for them. I'm trying to create a nice evolution set but specimens and information on this species is rare.

My area is around Capitola/Santa Cruz, which is the Purisima formation, the Santa Cruz mudstone, and Santa Margarita sandstone.