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GeschWhat

Possible Amphibian Jaw/Maxillary with Teeth in Coprolite

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GeschWhat

I was going through a large group of very small Triassic coprolites today and came upon this. Since there was a beat up Koskinonodon tooth in with the coprolites, I'm wondering if this could be a jaw or maxillary fragment from a juvenile. The person who found the coprolites said that he found a lot of Koskinonodon teeth in the area as well some from Phytosaur, Apachesaurus, Coelophysis, Postosuchus, and Revueltosaurus.  What do you all think? Jaw or maxillary? Amphibian, fish or something else?  If this is amphibian, can anyone identify the bone above and to the left of the teeth?

 

My cat votes amphibian :D

 

@Carl check it out!

Coprolite-Jaw-Teeth-Bull-Canyon-Formation-New-Mexico.jpg

IMG_4110.JPG

Coprolite-Jaw-Teeth-Bull-Canyon-Formation-New-Mexico-Micro.jpg

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Innocentx

Ha Ha!!! the cat n the scat. 

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WhodamanHD

That's cool! Looks like a jaw, and not like any fish ones I've seen from there (granted there were only four and they were the same species so take with a generous sprinkle of salt)

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MarcoSr

Lori

 

I will PM you with the e-mail address of an amphibian researcher from Canada who might be able to help you id your specimen. 

 

The lizard, frog and salamander jaws that I see have the teeth siting on a ledge in the jaw.  See the below pictures of an Oligocene lizard jaw that show what I mean.  EDIT:  Lizards are first reported from the early Jurassic but may go back to the late Triassic.

 

59e42e74922f7_Jaw26mmX3mm2ndTitanothereValleyFenceMMRanch.jpg.cd5dd2683692d6b79cfa8029aa6f8349.jpg

 

 

59e42e8d094fc_Jaw2a6mmX3mm2ndTitanothereValleyFenceMMRanch.jpg.a17487bfe38075297badf1341832c8f1.jpg

 

 

See the below illustration from Holman 2006 which distinguishes salamander from frog.  The frog teeth have replacement crowns in the Pedicels and the bottoms of their functional crowns are even with the gum line.  The bottoms of salamander functional crowns are below the gum line.  EDIT:  per Holman 2003 proanuran fossils are known from the late Triassic with the first jumping frogs not known until the Lower Jurassic.  EDIT: per Holman 2006 salamanders are possibly known from the Late Triassic but are first reported in North America in the early Jurassic so your specimen is not likely a salamander.

 

59e43037a1ca4_Salamanderversusfrog.thumb.jpg.acba2659bb8078ba93bcf8df8bf43800.jpg

 

If the teeth in your jaw sit on a ledge your jaw is not fish but most likely amphibian.  I really can't tell for sure from the pictures.

 

Marco Sr.

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doushantuo

Murlong

Not very dentition -oriented,but nice to have?

5jghb.jpg

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doushantuo

Looks amphibian("temnospondyl") to me,but hey,what do I know?

Took this Branson example because he described Koskinosaurus.

Info on Buettneria  is available on line(Case,Wilson)

5jghb.jpg

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Monica
9 hours ago, GeschWhat said:

 

IMG_4110.JPG

 

 

Hi Lori!

 

It's 5:30am and when I saw this picture I actually laughed out loud - I hope I didn't wake up Viola and William... :P

 

Cats are hilarious, aren't they?!  I love how your little guy is kind of posing like the salamander that you were looking at on your computer screen - so funny!!! :rofl:

 

Oh, and I really like your coprolite, too - that slice of jaw in it looks amazing!!!  Best of luck in your quest to find out who it belonged to... :fingerscrossed:

 

I hope that all is well - take care,

 

Monica

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old bones

Dang, that's nice, Lori!

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KimTexan

So cool. Interresting piece. Not much question about how it met its demise.

I still laugh at the thought of handling all the poop. I had to take a clinical pathology class on feces analysis. I also took a little course on scat analysis in the field, both were messy and stinky. So I have great appreciation for the fossilized variety. 

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Carl

ABSOLUTELY fantastic, Lori! I'd love to see your collection some day!

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GeschWhat
5 hours ago, Monica said:

It's 5:30am and when I saw this picture I actually laughed out loud

I laughed out loud when he did it. He actually does this all the time when he wants me to put my computer down. This time was especially funny because I had the salamander up. Such a goon!

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jpc

I laughed out loud too.  I rarely share TFF posts with my wife, but this one I did so she could laugh as well.  

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GeschWhat
1 hour ago, KimTexan said:

So cool. Interresting piece. Not much question about how it met its demise.

I still laugh at the thought of handling all the poop. I had to take a clinical pathology class on feces analysis. I also took a little course on scat analysis in the field, both were messy and stinky. So I have great appreciation for the fossilized variety. 

I remember back when I was a kid, our local nature center taught us about scat and I thought it was really gross when the guy broke it apart with bare hands to see what was in it...but that was in the winter so at least it wasn't stinky. :D

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GeschWhat

Thanks, @MarcoSr. This batch of coprolites had oodles of furrowed/lined and spiral coprolites, many of which were tiny. The group (1000+) was collected from the same area over time about 15 years ago. I'm wondering if it wasn't some sort of shallow water nursery. It will be interesting to see if your contact thinks the furrowed/lined coprolites could also be from amphibians. I usually only find one or two of that type in a batch from any one area.

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MarcoSr
1 hour ago, GeschWhat said:

Thanks, @MarcoSr. This batch of coprolites had oodles of furrowed/lined and spiral coprolites, many of which were tiny. The group (1000+) was collected from the same area over time about 15 years ago. I'm wondering if it wasn't some sort of shallow water nursery. It will be interesting to see if your contact thinks the furrowed/lined coprolites could also be from amphibians. I usually only find one or two of that type in a batch from any one area.

 

Lori

 

I don't think I've seen a furrowed/lined coprolite before.  Do you have pictures of one you could share?  If Jim can't help he will probably point you to another researcher.  Adrian Hunt or Spencer Lucas should be able to answer your question on the furrowed/lined coprolites.  If you don't get an answer and don't have their contact information I can PM it to you.  They would definitely be interested in your coprolites.

 

Marco Sr.

 

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GeschWhat

@MarcoSr here is a quick sampling of some of the furrowed coprolites in this group. Adrian Hunt classified this type as Alococoprus triassicus. He suggested that they could be from reptiles or crocodylomorphs. I have also included the photo a larger, more complete example from a different group. It has a slightly different morphology. 

Group.jpg

coprolite-sphincter-marks-quay-county-new-mexico-top2.jpg

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MarcoSr
3 hours ago, GeschWhat said:

@MarcoSr here is a quick sampling of some of the furrowed coprolites in this group. Adrian Hunt classified this type as Alococoprus triassicus. He suggested that they could be from reptiles or crocodylomorphs. I have also included the photo a larger, more complete example from a different group. It has a slightly different morphology. 

Group.jpg

coprolite-sphincter-marks-quay-county-new-mexico-top2.jpg

 

Lori

 

Thank you for posting these pictures.  I don't see coprolites that look like these in either the Eocene marine deposits in Virginia or the Oligocene terrestrial deposits in Nebraska where I've found a large number of coprolites.  If I found the coprolite in the last picture in a marine deposit I probably would have thought that the lines were from a serrated shark tooth.  I see sometimes whale bone from the Miocene that has parallel scratch lines that look like that from serrated megalodon teeth.

 

Marco Sr.

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GeschWhat
38 minutes ago, MarcoSr said:

 

Lori

 

Thank you for posting these pictures.  I don't see coprolites that look like these in either the Eocene marine deposits in Virginia or the Oligocene terrestrial deposits in Nebraska where I've found a large number of coprolites.  If I found the coprolite in the last picture in a marine deposit I probably would have thought that the lines were from a serrated shark tooth.  I see sometimes whale bone from the Miocene that has parallel scratch lines that look like that from serrated megalodon teeth.

 

Marco Sr.

To date, they have only been found from the Permian through to the end of the Cretaceous. They really do resemble feeding traces. Someone had just posted a swordfish rostrum the other day and its surface reminded me of these. I sent an email out to the contact you gave me. He is out until the end of the week, so I will post any additional information I get from him. I just tallied the number of furrowed coprolites in this batch. There were 179 (some of which were fragments). Here is another coprolite with the furrows. I found it when I was on a Forest Service dig in the Hell Creek Formation last summer. It is the largest example I've seen. Another thing interesting about this one is that it has striations on the concave portion of the segment as well as on the end.

Furrowed_Coprolite_4_Views.jpg

7 hours ago, Carl said:

ABSOLUTELY fantastic, Lori! I'd love to see your collection some day!

Back atcha!

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MarcoSr
2 hours ago, GeschWhat said:

Here is another coprolite with the furrows. I found it when I was on a Forest Service dig in the Hell Creek Formation last summer. It is the largest example I've seen. Another thing interesting about this one is that it has striations on the concave portion of the segment as well as on the end.

Furrowed_Coprolite_4_Views.jpg

 

 

Lori

 

I have seen coprolites somewhat similar to this one from the marine Eocene of Virginia,  See the picture below.  These specimens are 35mm to 60mm.  They were collected by a good friend of mine and also donated to the NMMNH&S.  We thought that they were croc.

 

59e558b1bb654_CoprolitesMikeF.EoceneVA35mm-60mm.thumb.jpg.759ea44c3fd9b0ccabe1fd67a1973144.jpg

 

Marco Sr.

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GeschWhat

Wow @MarcoSr...the one you circled in the lower right looks amazing! That is the first one I've seen post K/Pg with such pronounced furrows. The longitudinal striations that I've seen/read about relating to croc coprolites appeared to me to be a little more subtle. But I'm not exactly an expert.  Jesper Milan wrote a paper on Crocodylian Scatology. This is a photo from that paper showing the kind of striations found in extant species. This particular scat is from a slender-snouted crocodile.

Slender Snouted Crocodile.jpg

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GeschWhat
52 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

I have read this one before. This technology is amazing. Synchrotron microtomography puts CT imagery to shame.

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