Phacops, is this real?

[Spinosaurus]

when i was surfing over the internet i found this beautifull phacops. but i don't know a lot about these things. so does anyone know if this is real.

i saw this other trilobite, it's from the same seller, but the tail looks a bit fishy. thats why i just wanted to know if the other one is real too.

 

this is the fishy one, the tail doesn't look right.

[Fossildude19]

This one looks real to me. 

It has numerous cracks running through the trilobite, which is a good sign. 

Fakes don't usually have the level of detail in the eyes and glabella.

 

I would like to see more pictures of the second one, though. 

It does have a crack running through it, but hard to tell from one photo.

Regards,

[doushantuo]

pygidium of the last one indeed a wee bit dodgy

Zou er nog even over nadenken!

 

[Spinosaurus]

i was only thinking about buying the first one, i only posted the second one because i think it looks a bit wierd and it is from the same seller.

but thank you for your replies, erg bedankt 

but here are the rest of the picture for the second one

 

[Fossildude19]

That looks real to me as well.   

Regards,

[Spinosaurus]

ok, thanks for all your help guys 

[aplomado]

They look nice to me.  Of course, they may have been repaired, as they are usually found by splitting open rocks.

[Malcolmt]

First one is real and nice 2nd one is at least partially real , tail could be a composite from another bug

[RJB]

   The tail end on the 2nd one looks to be added with some kind of material and carved?

 

RB

[piranha]

3 hours ago, Malcolmt said:

...tail could be a composite from another bug

 

19 minutes ago, RJB said:

 The tail end on the 2nd one looks to be added with some kind of material and carved?

 

 

An average grade specimen like this is not worth the trouble.  The pygidium is 100% authentic.

 

[RJB]

Thanks @piranha, jsut looks fishy to me, but i wasnt sure.

 

RB

[aeon.rocks]

2 hours ago, piranha said:

 

 

 

An average grade specimen like this is not worth the trouble.  The pygidium is 100% authentic.

 

 

Agreed, both phacopsid and proteid specimens are authentic imho, even the pygidium, which is different color also due to diagensis. Color difference doesn`t always mean restoration. In regards to compositions - that`s not so easy to hide with moroccan material and judging by the prep quality level not an option in this case, not even worth the time aswell. More chances for compositions in case of some USA or Russian bugs...

[RJB]

Amazing how many folks here really know their stuff!!  Nice to learn.  I would have sworn differently. 

 

RB

[Tidgy's Dad]

There are so many of these types of trilobite coming out of Morocco that the prices have come right down. This makes it non-profitable spending a lot of time faking one. So, the number of fakes on the market here has dropped considerably, almost to zero (for these types, rarer ones are still faked). The eye detail and bumps on the cephalon are also too hard and time consuming to fake and are therefore real. 

The only fakes would be composites where genuine good quality eyes are glued on to replace damaged ones, or a pygidium added for the same reason. 

The pygidium here may have been attached, but I don't think so. 

[aeon.rocks]

On 10/18/2017 at 10:57 AM, Tidgy's Dad said:

There are so many of these types of trilobite coming out of Morocco that the prices have come right down. This makes it non-profitable spending a lot of time faking one. So, the number of fakes on the market here has dropped considerably, almost to zero (for these types, rarer ones are still faked). The eye detail and bumps on the cephalon are also too hard and time consuming to fake and are therefore real. 

The only fakes would be composites where genuine good quality eyes are glued on to replace damaged ones, or a pygidium added for the same reason. 

The pygidium here may have been attached, but I don't think so. 

 

The problem with composites is that that takes time, equipment and a lot of skill to do perfectly. If you see a quickly comercialy prepped moroccan bug - poor prep quality, it`s highly unlikely that it has a perfectly composited pygidium or eyes... Check out the photos above, what makes you think the pygidium is fake or composited? Colors? I wouldn`t worry about composites in case of common moroccan bugs. There are some examples of russian trilobites that have composited parts of librigenia and pygidium tho, but that`s another prep level - which you don`t see on moroccan trilobites for 20-50$.

 

The moroccan trilobite market as a whole has taken a big stinky dump. Once you start flooding the market with bugs that you are willing to give away for $20. You take the entire market down with you.... Supply has far exceeded demand now...at least in terms of the lower quality specimens. Surely, Moroccans prep quick, but If this was not true...then they would prep more time to offer better quality. When moroccan sellers starting competing between each other and thinking "Nobody is buying my trilobites at $100...I'll lower then to $50...wait...still not many buyers...I'll lower them to $20!" You simply ruin your own market and make it to the point that your effort, time, and risk is virtually worthless and as a result everybody preps. Russian trilobites in that matter aren't actually rare...its just that the supply has been held back. If Russian sellers flooded the market as Moroccan sellers do they would be undercutting themselves, instead they keep prices too high, but well that`s another story.

 

In regards to fakes, I agree, the number of fakes on the market has dropped considerably and if you know what to look for they are easy to spot. See this fake psychopyge for example, it`s pretty obvious:

 

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

2 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

The problem with composites is that that takes time, equipment and a lot of skill to do perfectly. If you see a quickly comercialy prepped moroccan bug - poor prep quality, it`s highly unlikely that it has a perfectly composited pygidium or eyes... Check out the photos above, what makes you think the pygidium is fake or composited? Colors? I wouldn`t worry about composites in case of common moroccan bugs. There are some examples of russian trilobites that have composited parts of librigenia and pygidium tho, but that`s another prep level - which you don`t see on moroccan trilobites for 20-50$.

 

The moroccan trilobite market as a whole has taken a big stinky dump. Once you start flooding the market with bugs that you are willing to give away for $20. You take the entire market down with you.... Supply has far exceeded demand now...at least in terms of the lower quality specimens. Surely, Moroccans prep quick, but If this was not true...then they would prep more time to offer better quality. When moroccan sellers starting competing between each other and thinking "Nobody is buying my trilobites at $100...I'll lower then to $50...wait...still not many buyers...I'll lower them to $20!" You simply ruin your own market and make it to the point that your effort, time, and risk is virtually worthless and as a result everybody preps. Russian trilobites in that matter aren't actually rare...its just that the supply has been held back. If Russian sellers flooded the market as Moroccan sellers do they would be undercutting themselves, instead they keep prices too high, but well that`s another story.

 

In regards to fakes, I agree, the number of fakes on the market has dropped considerably and if you know what to look for they are easy to spot. See this fake psychopyge for example, it`s pretty obvious:

 

 

Er, I don't think the pygidium is a fake and said as much in my post. 

We are of the same mind , here. 

Bu there are still a lot of obvious fakes like the one in the photo you posted, even fossil scorpions, and I don't mean Eurypterids, are quite common in this style of fake. 

But there are still large numbers of cheap trilobites with eyes badly glued on as well. 

It may be obvious to you and me, but I would say the majority of people, non-collectors, wouldn't know the difference.People like a cheap souvenir, or a present for a small child and won't even pay the §20 so there are still a great number of Calymenids in really bad condition with bits glued and painted on for example available for next to nothing but still a way of making a few extra dirham. And death assemblages, where several real trilobites, sometimes from different time periods, are placed in a single plate together. The painting or etching on of details such as genal spines and glabella furrow is still rife, this only takes minutes for the preparation guys. I would say that many of the dealers here in Morocco make more money selling large numbers of poor quality trilobites than they do from the rare and therefore still quite expensive ones. Quantity not quality. 

And regarding the lowering of the prices, well that's how it works. Morocco doesn't have a fixed price system, haggling is everything. based on supply and demand. If people have started to learn how to haggle properly, you can get the fossil for between 25 to 50 per cent of the starting price and the dealer still makes a profit. If the dealer hasn't got enough money in his pocket to buy this weeks groceries he will sell at a price that barely covers his costs just so his family can eat that week, he can't afford to wait until someone pays the original asking price. 

Interestingly, one can actually get the price reduced significantly if you cry "Fake!"  and knowledgeably point out areas of the fossil that are damaged, touched up or painted on, even if they actually aren't as the seller will usually have got the fossil from a dealer and prepper and often doesn't have a clue himself. A good example is the Devonian trilos that come in nodules which are split open through the middle so the guy can see the orientation of the fossil within, then glued back together and prepped. Point out the break, which will be concealed in a good prep job, but visible on the reverse side, and you can sometimes get a bargain. I recently purchased a dinosaur vertebrae in Agadir as the guy in the gift shop thought it was some sort of fish. I told him it wasn't so he went and got a book and shoved me a picture of an Icthyosaur and it's vertebrae and i pointed out it wasn't nearly the same thing, without telling him i knew whet it was. He was horrified and i offered to give him a few dirham for the thing, just because I liked it. He agreed. Result!   

[aeon.rocks]

There are many collectors who don`t buy moroccan trilobites simply because they are afraid to spend money on fakes, composites and heavily restored specimens, so "quantity not quality" is kind of a problem for moroccan preparators, diggers and sellers imho. Still plenty of topics "is this trilobite real" on this forum about trilobites from Morocco. I agree with most you said, it`s ironic, but the saying you get what you pay for is very true. It`s simply not possible to offer better quality and compete with the prices of other sellers in Morocco. That`s why I said Moroccans have ruined their own market and make it to the point that their effort, time, and risk is virtually worthless...

 

In example, how long do you estimate the Barrandeops in the photos above took to prep? I would estimate 3-5 hours if you work fast? Easily 10+ hours of a little more careful work and depending on the break/matrix/equipment etc. Let`s say a moroccan preparator got it from a moroccan trilobite digger for 5$, spend 5 hours on prep and then sold it to a moroccan seller for 10-15$, who then sold it to a seller in USA for 20$, before it ended in the market in USA for 25-50$... If you cut out the middle man and sell it for 25$, you earn 20$, not counting other costs that`s not too bad considering moroccan standards. But you have to work fast and that`s usually a problem, which results in poor quality, and that`s bad, but if you invest to much time in a common specimen like this, you end up working for free or with a price-tag nobody wants to pay. So yeah, it`s understandable, ironically, people get what they pay for... And then complain about it (not the case here, it`s a nicely prepped specimen).

 

It`s how economy works, not only in Morocco... Everybody likes cheap! Don`t get me wrong, it is nothing wrong with cheap souvenirs or a present for a small child, but I`ve seen to many destroyed fossils and hear complaints about fakes too many times, it`s bad for your business. And also, although there are plenty of fossils in Morocco, we have to realize fossils are a limited resource (on the long run) and is a shame to destroy a nice specimen, if it could be prepped more carefully. Anyway, in regards to fakes, I think we all agree that every fake sold as a real trilobite is bad for your business on the long run, luckily the number of pizzas and other fakes has decreased in the last decade. Plenty of natural trilobites in Morocco, I`m sure a lot of people would pay even more dirharms if they were nicer prepped and people wouldn`t have doubts about fakes.