Adam's Ordovician.

[Tidgy's Dad]

19 hours ago, Bobby Rico said:

Very nice, in fact beautiful. I would have purchased that too. 

 

Is it a sea urchins?   

Close, but no banana. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

9 hours ago, Wrangellian said:

Looks like your extra is an edrioasteroid - maybe Spinadiscus lefebvrei? Nice association!

I've got one of the edrio's, but still don't have me a decent starfish from that place...

Only thing is my information says Lower Ordovician - Floian maybe? Tiouririne Fm. and from Mecissi - is that anywhere near El Kaid Errami?

You are corrrect for points. 

The Tiouririne Fm  Formation is Upper Caradoc/Lower Ashgill so Upper Ordovician and is part of the Ktaoua Group occurring between the Lower and Upper Ktaoua and outcrops around the whole region , El Qaid Errami is about forty km from Erfoud and is sort of a region which I think incorporates Mecissi.   

[Tidgy's Dad]

8 hours ago, Spongy Joe said:

Hey-up, Wrangellian - your 'Floian' label refers to the Fezouata instead (which also has asterozoans and edrios...), but dealers often get the two mixed up. The lithologies are totally different, though (and the species), so it's easy to work out.

 

This one's definitely a Late Ord. example, from the El Caid Errami (various spellings exist!) area. Not sure of the site; might be Tizi N'mouri or Isthlou, perhaps. As for the (SIX!!) bonus edrios... well, that's a nice surprise.

It was and the dealer was unaware of them and the other bits of them on the reverse. 

The Arabic spelling is El Qaid Errami (like Quran, not Koran) but this is Morocco and our version of Arabic, Darija, does not have a written form so spellings are variable, one just makes it up as one goes along. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

6 hours ago, Spongy Joe said:

That's (unfortunately) hilarious..!

The name Spinadiscus lefbevrei hasn't been easy to track down. In fact, I don't think it's valid... but will be next year! It's a long story, but there was a special volume due to be published on the Late Ordovician echinoderms of Morocco, which for various reasons didn't quite happen (despite several of the papers being completed). I think this name probably comes from there. The good news is the entire fauna (not just echinoderms) is due to come out next year, and most of the chapters are finished; so, hopefully the edrio chapter will include this! It may be from the Tiouririne or Ktaoua Formation, but is certainly Late Ordovician; there are a number of localities, many of them in or around the area of El Kaid Errami.

 

Next up we have Euryeschatia reboulorum (named after an amateur couple, Roland and Veronique Reboul) by Sumrall & Zamora (2011). From the paper: "Found in all cases attached to
conulariids from the Upper Ordovician (lowermost Ashgill) in the Upper Tiouririne Formation in two different localities of the El Caı̈d Rami area (Tarhia and Djebel Tijarfaı̈ouine), Morocco".

     So, Ashgill is correct, and Floian is wrong. Tiouririne Formation is correct, and Fezouata is wrong. And 'area east of Erfoud' is indeed correct.

 

Your machaeridian is also probably from the Tiouririne or underlying Ktaoua formation (collectively known as the Tafilalt Biota). There are plumulitids from the Fezouata - the ones that revealed what machaeridians actually are! - but those are extremely rare, whereas the ones from the Tafilalt are locally common.

 

So, the thing to remember: the Fezouata Biota is from the Lower Ordovician Fezouata Formation (Tremadoc and Floian), from the area around Zagora. The Tafilalt Biota (including most of the echinoderms and machaeridians easily available for sale) is from the Late Ordovician (Katian and early Ashgillian) Ktaoua and Tiouririne formations of the area broadly including El Caid Errami (numerous sites included), east of Erfoud. If your notes say it's a mixture of the two, feel free to berate the dealer vigorously. Hope that makes it a bit clearer!

Yes, one is hoping that Spinadiscus lefebvrei will be official very soon along with many other species from the area (and indeed all of Morocco!) 

But El Qaid Errami is south west of Erfoud, and further South West are progressively older Ordovician rocks to Zagora and the area of the Fezouata Fm. 

The Ktaoua Group contains various formations including the Lower Ktaoua Fm, the Tiouririne Fm and the Upper Ktaoua Fm. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

3 hours ago, crinus said:

 

You are correct about Spinadiscus lefbevrei not being valid at this time.  I started using it when C. Sumrall  ID a specimen for me and it just took off.  I keep asking when it is going to get published but never get a straight answer.  Soon is all I get.  It was in a thesis but that thesis was never published.  There is one reference to it on the internet in a list of species but that is it.  Would be nice if it all comes out soon. There is so much there that is not identified.

Joe

Very true. 

Everyone seems to call it Spinadiscus lefebvrei but there is nothing to validate this at the moment. 

Hope you are enjoying Adam's Ordovician.  

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

So here it is, my first edrioasteroid and i'm very happy with it indeed! 

And I am calling it Spinadiscus lefbevrei for now! 

The little more detailed one is 1 cm across. 

@Peat Burns, if i should get another starfish and/ edrioasteroid, you get one. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

And that is the end of Adam's Ordovician for now. 

I hope to resume soon as I have some brachiopods on the way, and am hoping they will be here soon. 

Until then, thanks so much to everyone who has contributed or just read this thread and i will be back pronto with the start of Adam's Silurian. 

At last.  

[Peat Burns]

1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

 

@Peat Burns, if i should get another starfish and/ edrioasteroid, you get one. 

I sure wish the package I sent you would arrive 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Just now, Peat Burns said:

I sure wish the package I sent you would arrive 

Me too, i'm getting quite depressed about it, now i've got 5 species to replace if it doesn't show instead of just the one! 

[Peat Burns]

1 minute ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Me too, i'm getting quite depressed about it, now i've got 5 species to replace if it doesn't show instead of just the one! 

I'll send replacements if it doesn't come.  Hopefully it will eventually arrive.. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

Just now, Peat Burns said:

I'll send replacements if it doesn't come.  Hopefully it will eventually arrive.. 

That's very, very kind of you, but, yes, wait a bit first, the record is 2 months and three days so far, so we're nowhere near that yet! 

[Wrangellian]

9 hours ago, Spongy Joe said:

That's (unfortunately) hilarious..!

The name Spinadiscus lefbevrei hasn't been easy to track down. In fact, I don't think it's valid... but will be next year! It's a long story, but there was a special volume due to be published on the Late Ordovician echinoderms of Morocco, which for various reasons didn't quite happen (despite several of the papers being completed). I think this name probably comes from there. The good news is the entire fauna (not just echinoderms) is due to come out next year, and most of the chapters are finished; so, hopefully the edrio chapter will include this! It may be from the Tiouririne or Ktaoua Formation, but is certainly Late Ordovician; there are a number of localities, many of them in or around the area of El Kaid Errami.

 

Next up we have Euryeschatia reboulorum (named after an amateur couple, Roland and Veronique Reboul) by Sumrall & Zamora (2011). From the paper: "Found in all cases attached to
conulariids from the Upper Ordovician (lowermost Ashgill) in the Upper Tiouririne Formation in two different localities of the El Caı̈d Rami area (Tarhia and Djebel Tijarfaı̈ouine), Morocco".

     So, Ashgill is correct, and Floian is wrong. Tiouririne Formation is correct, and Fezouata is wrong. And 'area east of Erfoud' is indeed correct.

 

Your machaeridian is also probably from the Tiouririne or underlying Ktaoua formation (collectively known as the Tafilalt Biota). There are plumulitids from the Fezouata - the ones that revealed what machaeridians actually are! - but those are extremely rare, whereas the ones from the Tafilalt are locally common.

 

So, the thing to remember: the Fezouata Biota is from the Lower Ordovician Fezouata Formation (Tremadoc and Floian), from the area around Zagora. The Tafilalt Biota (including most of the echinoderms and machaeridians easily available for sale) is from the Late Ordovician (Katian and early Ashgillian) Ktaoua and Tiouririne formations of the area broadly including El Caid Errami (numerous sites included), east of Erfoud. If your notes say it's a mixture of the two, feel free to berate the dealer vigorously. Hope that makes it a bit clearer!

Ah, thanks! Yes it was getting to be quite a mishmash of data there. I think I understand the stratigraphy now, but the geography is another thing - I have not been able to find a decent map that shows the Ordovician formation outcrops in relation to the various towns/regions. Once I see that I think I'll be able to cut thru any future mislabeled Moroccan Ordo stuff.

[Tidgy's Dad]

Just now, Wrangellian said:

Ah, thanks! Yes it was getting to be quite a mishmash of data there. I think I understand the stratigraphy now, but the geography is another thing - I have not been able to find a decent map that shows the Ordovician formation outcrops in relation to the various towns/regions. Once I see that I think I'll be able to cut thru any future mislabeled Moroccan Ordo stuff.

And then look at google to find the location of smaller towns and villages in relation to Erfoud, Zagora, Goulmima and Alnif. 

Roughly speaking the Ordovician rocks get older the further you go South West. 

[Wrangellian]

3 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

And then look at google to find the location of smaller towns and villages in relation to Erfoud, Zagora, Goulmima and Alnif. 

Roughly speaking the Ordovician rocks get older the further you go South West. 

Thanks, that's getting warmer...

So the Lower Ordo Fezouata is mostly along that narrow strip to the left?

I might have to make a map of my own using this and additional info from Google and elsewhere..

Sorry to hijack your thread, but when I find someone who can sort thru this stuff for me, I have to strike while the iron is hot!

Looking forward to your Silurian.

[Tidgy's Dad]

Just now, Wrangellian said:

Thanks, that's getting warmer...

So the Lower Ordo Fezouata is mostly along that narrow strip to the left?

I might have to make a map of my own using this and additional info from Google and elsewhere..

Sorry to hijack your thread, but when I find someone who can sort thru this stuff for me, I have to strike while the iron is hot!

Looking forward to your Silurian.

You're not hijacking my thread, this is all relevant and useful to me and others who might read this.

And I'm sure I stand to be corrected in some details, I can't get out much myself; so am hardly an expert. 

The Fezouata lagerstatte is situated in a huge area around the Draa valley north of Zagora. 

The long thin bit south west is probably mainly Lower Ordovician but not the Fezouata lagerstatte, just standard trilos and stuff.

But I'm not certain. 

 

[Wrangellian]

Thanks Adam. So the Fezouata is only Draa Valley area and any specimens we acquire are not likely to be from anywhere else?

[Wrangellian]

The 'S. lefebvrei' ID I got from the dealer's label which added "gen. et. sp. nov."

 

The confusion in my labels between Fezouata and Ktaoua (Lower and Upper Ordo material) could have been mine, in trying to fill in gaps left by the dealers who simply say "Ordovician". Somewhere along the way I figured out that the Fezouata was Lower and the Ktaoua was Upper Ordo, but did not know how to tell the difference in any given specimen when not enough info was supplied.

@Spongy Joe, you say you can tell the difference by the rock type. I gather the Ktaoua is coarse-grained sandstone matrix while the Fezouata material is a finer mudstone type of rock. The only specimen I have now that doesn't fit is a Rhopalocystis or Ascocystities (not sure which is correct) eocrinoid which I have labeled as Upper Fezouata from Draa Valley, but the material is very coarse, so now I'm thinking that is not correct.

Maybe I need to start my own Ordovician thread...

[Tidgy's Dad]

Just now, Wrangellian said:

Thanks Adam. So the Fezouata is only Draa Valley area and any specimens we acquire are not likely to be from anywhere else?

I believe so. 

But's it's a massive area, hundreds of square kilometres in size. 

I posted my what I believe is Ascocystites earlier in this thread. 

 

[Spongy Joe]

38 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

I believe so. 

But's it's a massive area, hundreds of square kilometres in size. 

I posted my what I believe is Ascocystites earlier in this thread. 

 

Pretty much, yes... but it has also been found around Al Nif, to the northeast (get my east and west the right way round, this time! ). Not as high quality, but the exceptional preservation does extend that way a little bit.

 

Wrangellian, if it's a Rhopalocystis slab, then it could well be Fezouata - there are occasional storm beds and sandy layers in the Fezouata that include this genus in abundance, but they normally have a yellowy-green look to them, or are pale blue-grey limestones. Send me a pic, and I'll have a look.

[Wrangellian]

It's a pinkish, coarse sandstone. I'll see if I can find/get a pic.

[Spongy Joe]

10 minutes ago, Wrangellian said:

It's a pinkish, coarse sandstone. I'll see if I can find/get a pic.

Sounds like Lower Ktaoua Formation to me - quite likely Ascocystites from Bou Nemrou.

[Wrangellian]

On 2/28/2018 at 6:51 PM, Tidgy's Dad said:

And here is a beauty. 

An Upper Ordovician eocrinoid, Lower Caradoc, First Bani Group, Izegguirene Formation from Bou Nemrou, El Kaid Errami, Morocco. Age about 455 mya. 

Here's Ascocystites sp, notice how the bigger, older ones have more sections to the theca and more brachioles than the smaller, younger ones. Roughly aligned to the direction of the mudslide that buries them. Full length of the biggest one - 9cm from tip to tip, block 11 cm long. 

   

 

This one? Yes mine looks similar, though yours is better. Same sort of micaceous sandstone. Mine might be even redder unless your camera just didn't pick up that color.

I guess I can't assume your location/strat data will apply to mine as well, but I'd like to be ably to copy your info for my label!

[Tidgy's Dad]

Just now, Wrangellian said:

This one? Yes mine looks similar, though yours is better. Same sort of micaceous sandstone. Mine might be even redder unless your camera just didn't pick up that color.

I guess I can't assume your location/strat data will apply to mine as well, but I'd like to be ably to copy your info for my label!

Yes, mine looks a lot redder than it seems in the photo. 

Copy away, but this info is what i was told by the dealer, i didn't find it myself. 

[Wrangellian]

It's looking likely that it's the same. I'll copy but put a ? next to it. Thanks guys.

It's good to be able to correct a bunch of labels.

[Tidgy's Dad]

Here is a sizeable chunk of the receptaculitid Fisherites reticulatus from the Galena Group, Stewartville Formation of Fillmore County, Minnesota, USA most kindly sent to me by the Mighty Mike @minnbuckeye It's Upper Ordovician, about 448 mya and is 8.5 cm long, 4.5 cm wide and about 2 cm deep.

This is my first ever receptaculitid, so it's extra special to me. Thanks, Mike.