Trying to identify these gastropod fossils

[dbarshlomo]

Being a newbie to fossil collecting, I usually go to the same creek on mount Carmel (Israel), which is a 10 minute drive from where I live. This time I tried another location, less than 2 km away from my “usual” spot, and to my surprise, although I couldn’t find any of the specimens I usually do (which are mainly ammonites) - I did find 3 pretty large fossils of another type of sea snail, which I’m not familiar with…
I’ve attached pictures of 2 of them (those that were in a better condition) and also a picture with a scale to better present their size…
Could anyone help me identify them?

 

Thank you! :-)

[Miocene_Mason]

No idea the species, but they are huge! I hope someone else can help. Good luck!

[Herb]

nice snails, but no ID, sorry

[KimTexan]

Those are very nice. I know nothing about African gastropods, but maybe @Ludwigia or @fifbrindacier might be able to point you in the right direction or at least refer it to someone else who can help.

[FranzBernhard]

These steinkerns are nice but difficult! Can you get a geological map of the area these fossils were found? If you have an approx. age, it is easier to narrow it down, what it is.

Franz Bernhard

[Napoleon North]

Snail  100%!

[Ludwigia]

11 minutes ago, Napoleon North said:

Snail  100%!

I think he knows that already. What he'd like to hear is their names. If they're not Jurassic, which is probably the case since I've not seen any like these of that age, then I'm out of my depth here. We need a more precise stratigraphical classification here to begin with.

[caterpillar]

It could be a Gisortia from eocene level

 

https://science.mnhn.fr/institution/mnhn/collection/f/item/r63051?lang=fr_FR

[dbarshlomo]

I think I found some info about these specimens on some local (Israeli) website.
Attaching a few images from the specific web page, to me they seem pretty similar to the fossils I found...
The genus is called Strombus, and nowadays living specimens can be found in tropical regions.
In Israel they can be found in layers from the Albian Age (the youngest of the Early Cretaceous Epoch) and the Cenomanian Age (the earliest of the Late Cretaceous Epoch), which places the age of the fossils somewhere between 113 and 93.9 Ma.
In any case, thank you for your help!
 

[fifbrindacier]

I'd like to help, but i really don't know enough about gastropods. But you can check that site : click on "collections" and then on "geological entry" or "geographical entry".

That said, i think they don't have a lot of shells from that part of the world.

Sophie.

[abyssunder]

The conservation status and the color is similar to the Upper Cretaceous large gastropods I've found in Romania, but those are acteonellids, Acteonella (Trochactaeon) species, so I think the geological age might be proper. You have extremely large gastropod molds, not comparable to any fossil ones I've seen. My first thought was Strombus, but I don't think they could be that. Try to compare the dimensions. Also, you could try to cut in half longitudinally one of the specimens, to see the internal morphology. It will be interesting.

[dbarshlomo]

@abyssunder. Thanks for your reply! Why do you think these fossils couldn't be Strombus? Because of their size?

[abyssunder]

Yes, because of their size, but probably they grew to very large size and you collected only the biggest ones.

 

"
Superfamily Strombacea RAFINESQUE, 1815
Family Strombidae RAFINESQUE, 1815
Genus Strombus LINNÉ, 1758
Type species. Strombus pugilis LINNÉ, 1758.
”Strombus“ incertus (D´ORBIGNY, 1842)
Pl. 10, Figs. 1-2

 

1842 Pterocera incerta sp. nov. – D`ORBIGNY: 308, pl. 215, fig. 1.
1912 Strombus (?) incertus (D´ORBIGNY) – PERVINQUIÈRE: 27, pl. 2, figs. 19-23.
1916 Strombus (?) incertus (D´ORBIGNY) – GRECO: 160, pl. 19, fig. 10.
1933 Strombus incertus (D´ORBIGNY) – FURON: 265, pl. 9, figs. 7a, b.
1958 Strombus incertus (D´ORBIGNY) – BARBER: 33, pl. 9, fig. 1.
1992 Strombus incerta (D´ORBIGNY) – ABDEL GAWAD & GAMEIL: 81, pl. 3, fig. 17.

 

Material. 10 moderately to well preserved internal moulds. PIW 2002 VII 247-248.
Description. Very large gastropod with a conical shape; spire low and depressed, flat or only slightly protruding above the basal whorl; basal whorl with straight or slightly convex sides and several spiral grooves, of which only the upper four are visible in one specimen; suture deep; aperture wide and highly ovate.
Remarks. The shape of the moulds point to a representative of the family Strombidae. A precise identification is not possible due to the lack of information on the shell.
Dimensions. Height 80-150 mm, width 65-105 mm.
Distribution. “Strombus” incertus is a well known and widespread Cenomanian gastropod. It has been recorded from Southern Europe (D´ORBIGNY 1842) and in Northern Africa (PERVINQUIÈRE 1912; GRECO ABDEL GAWAD & GAMEIL 1992) and in the Lower Turonian of Central Africa (BARBER 1958). In southern Jordan, it occurs in the Cenomanian of Ras En Naqb and Dilagha (sections 2 and 4). Samples J2-1, J4-1. "

 

 

excerpts from R. Berndt. 2002. Palaeoecology and taxonomy of the macrobenthic fauna from the Upper Cretaceous Ajlun Group, southern Jordan. Unpublished Ph. D thesis. Würzburg University Germany, 221 p.

 

[dbarshlomo]

@abyssunder. Thank you very much for the effort!
Figures 1 and 2, in the image you sent, certainly look like what I found (Strombus Incertus). Also their geographical locations match - Southern Europe and Northern Africa (which Israel is placed right in between) and Jordan, which is a neighboring country…
To me, although I admit I’m no expert, it seems like a match!
Thanks a lot for your help! :-)

[ynot]

6 minutes ago, dbarshlomo said:

@abyssunder.

@dbarshlomo

When You type @ to tag a member there will be a drop down menu. You have to select the user name from the drop down menu.

If done correctly the tag will be highlighted.

This will prompt a notification to that member that they were mentioned in a post. Quoting a member has the same effect.

[dbarshlomo]

@ynot

Got it! Thanks :-)

[ynot]

1 minute ago, dbarshlomo said:

@ynot

Got it! Thanks :-)

[abyssunder]

You are welcome !

[abyssunder]

A more recent reference might be Ayoub-Hannaa, Wagih and Fürsich, Franz Theodor. 2011. Revision of Cenomanian-Turonian (Upper Cretaceous) gastropods from Egypt. Zitteliana, Vol. A 51: 115-152 .

See description, occurrence, discussion in the document.

 

 

Harpagodes nodosus (J. de C. Sowerby, 1823)
Fig. 11A–C

1823 Dolium nodosum sp. nov. – J. de C. Sowerby: 34, pl. 426–427.
1842 Pterocera incerta sp. nov. – d’Orbigny: 308, pl. 215, fig. 1.
1912 Strombus (?) incertus d’Orbigny – Pervinquière: 27, pl. 2, figs 19–23.
1916 Strombus (?) incertus d’Orbigny – Greco: 160 (102), pl. 11 (14), fig. 10.
1939 Strombus incertus d’Orbigny – Delpey: 117; textfigs 81–83.
1958 Strombus incertus (d’Orbigny) – Barber: 33, pl. 9, fig. 1.
1963 Strombus incertus (d’Orbigny) – Fawzi: 96, pl. 7, fig. 6.
1963 Strombus (Dilatilabrum) tihensis sp. nov. – Abbass: 84, pl. 8, figs 7, 8.
1971 Strombus incertus (d’Orbigny) – Collignon: 10 (152), pl. A, fig. 5.
1981 Strombus incertus (d’Orbigny) – Amard et al.: pl. 15, fig. 9.
1985 Harpagodes incertus (d’Orbigny) – Kollmann: 101, fig. 4j–k.
1992 Strombus incerta (d’Orbigny) – Abdel-Gawad & Gameil: 81, fig. 3/17.
1992 Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – Abdel-Gawad & Zalat: pl. 1, fig. 2a, b.
1993 Strombus (Dilatilabrum) tihensis Abbass – Orabi: pl. 1, fig. 24.
1994 Strombus incertus (d’Orbigny) – Kassab & Ismael: 230, fig. 4/2.
2001 Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – Abdallah et al.: pl. 1, figs 8, 9.
2001 Strombus incerta (d’Orbigny) – Zakhera: pl. 3, fig. 3.
2001 Strombus tihensis Abbass – Zakhera: pl. 3, fig. 4.
2004 Strombus incertus (d’Orbigny) – Khalil & Mashaly: pl. 2, fig. 9.
2004a Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – Abdel-Gawad et al.: pl. 6, fig. 1.
2004b Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – Abdel-Gawad et al.: pl. 5, fig. 11
2005 Harpagodes nodosus (J. de C. Sowerby, 1823) – Kollmann: 133, pl. 15, fig. 5a, b.
2006 Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – El Qot: 105, pl. 22, fig. 1.
2007 Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – Mekawy: 163, pl. 2, fig. 6.
2008 Pterocera incerta d’Orbigny – Mekawy & Abu Zied: 326, pl. 5, fig. 2.

 

excerpts from the manuscript