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Your thoughts, please. Forum help with croc prep


jpc

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Hi all... I finally got my new prep lab up and running and pulled a jacket out of storage.  A pile of crocodilian scutes and a few bones form the Eocene Wasatch Fm of southwestern Wyoming.  i have exposed the bones and I am stumped.  Do I leave these bones in matrix to show them as found, or take them out and have a cool collection that is much more easily stored or displayed.  They main argument for removing them is that it is a fairly big bloc, and I don't have all that much display space, and it is not really articualted.  The main argument for displaying as is is that it would be a lot less work.  A lot less.  I kinda want to know what  you folks think.  I was hoping I would find a skull or a jaw, but no such luck yet, although there are few areas that puzzle me.

 

Here are some pix.  Notice that it is primarily scutes, as croc skeletons tend to be.  

IMG_3994b.thumb.jpg.49f0f88223a193c4a23cc488078cea7b.jpg

 

and a few closer up shots.  Here is a pile of scutes.IMG_3991b.thumb.jpg.f20df7e3248ad7f515e1f6a40d4e52d2.jpg

 

and here are two leg bones... and a bunch more scutes, and at the top of the picture is a string of articulated verts.  

 

IMG_3992b.thumb.jpg.5f825d5d5d8e0da93335e09ae46c6471.jpg

 

Here is another shot of the verts.  Through the out-of-focusitude, notice how fractured they are.  These will be a lot of fun to put back together, but they will look a lot better (I hope). 

IMG_3993b.thumb.jpg.2f6eed39a047896a67ceab3fd9806bdd.jpg

 

Thanks for looking and 

 

 

What would you do?  

 

 

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That looks like a fantastically fun project. Personally I tend to favour prepping things completely out of the matrix. This is mainly because I want to learn as much as I can from the specimen's anatomy.

No specimen is the same of course. Some might look much better in situ, or might retain more information in situ. Others might benefit more from taking everything out.

 

 

What I would do with a project like this, is that I would just start cleaning it up a little without making any real preparations to take it out. I'd just work around the bones in place a little and make it pretty. The upside is that you can take your time and see if more patterns of articulation might appear when uncovering new bones. And you could still change your mind at any time. If you decide not to take out the bones you can just finish up the surface cleaning so it's nice and pretty. But if you find that it's really not pretty in matrix or that it really doesn't have any articulation to speak of, you can still take it out and continue the prepping from there. The possible downside of this would be that it might take more time in total if you do decide to take the bones out of the matrix since you wouldn't be prepping towards that goal for much of the time. But it does probably provide you with the most information on what might be the best option.

 

So yeah, I'd say just start and go slow. Decide later whether you want to remove everything or leave them in.

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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The Great JP, the Super Duper!!!   I wish I could help you out, but to me,, it looks like a mess.   A cool mess but a mess.   Its not in front of me on my prep bench but if it was I would just 3-D what I could and hope I run into more stuff.  I do wish you the very best of luck in finding more stuff though.  Will be looking forward to seeing this completed. 

 

RB

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OK, first of all you gotta get rid of that raggedy flannel shirt your wearing, then you can worry about how to go about your prep.

Fashion is so important in these instances!

 

 

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51 minutes ago, caldigger said:

OK, first of all you gotta get rid of that raggedy flannel shirt your wearing, then you can worry about how to go about your prep.

Fashion is so important in these instances!

Dang... someone picked up on that one.  That raggediness is from years of sticking my hands in the sandblasting box.  I have a new one, but I am not ready to trash it yet.  Thanks for your concern, caldigger. 

 

One thought thet I did not mention above it that , as LordT mentioned, there are more pieces underneath the piles of scutes.  Looking under them is the best way to find out what exactly is down there.  

 

Keep the thoughts coming.  As RB mentioned,I hope to keep you guys appraised of the progress, but I have some contract work coming in soon which may sway me away form this guy.  

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I'm a matrix person and believe it would have greater impact left in the matrix than individual scutes.  However having said that if it looks awful during prepping or you find additional bones you could easily take them out.   If they were loose what would your plans be for them.  

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In theory, I am also a matrix person.  How to display them if I do take them out is also part of the equation.  Dilemma.  

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I prefer specimens out of the matrix as I like to see the entire specimen and it saves on display/storage space. And weight.

Personally, I would prep them out all the way and then display them articulated in a nice wood case with padding like a riker box (but nicer). That way, you kind of get the 'matrix' display without all the weight, can pull a piece or so out and examine it three-dimensionally, see the specimen in its entirety, and arrange the articulated bits how you want.

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."
-Romans 14:19

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7 hours ago, Jesuslover340 said:

I prefer specimens out of the matrix as I like to see the entire specimen and it saves on display/storage space. And weight.

Personally, I would prep them out all the way and then display them articulated in a nice wood case with padding like a riker box (but nicer). That way, you kind of get the 'matrix' display without all the weight, can pull a piece or so out and examine it three-dimensionally, see the specimen in its entirety, and arrange the articulated bits how you want.

If there are enough bits to make a nice articulated showpiece this is probably what I would do as well.

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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14 hours ago, caldigger said:

OK, first of all you gotta get rid of that raggedy flannel shirt your wearing, then you can worry about how to go about your prep.

Fashion is so important in these instances!

One funny guy here!  Thanks for my morning laugh.  :)

 

RB

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I prefer matrix specimens keeping everything together.

 

 You could prep out all what you see and re-mount on some nice wood exactly as you found scutes and bones in the matrix. Of course this would work fine if you croc is two dimensional but not if there’s a stack more crock in the matrix. 

 

I guess you’ve gotta start doing initial prep whatever way you want to proceed. 

 

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The interest of this piece is that all the elements are together. You can do a scan to see if there are other bones underneath and also clear the other side
In my opinion, you should leave everything together. And you will have less work !!

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The matrix looks really soft so you may have problems prepping it in the matrix anyway without a lot of glue. The bone looks like it should be easy to get out of that matrix. In the first photo I feel like I am seeing more bone in the cross section edge. I'm in the take it out camp. You can always hope for a nice, complete foot underneath! Good luck and show us when you are done.

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5 hours ago, caterpillar said:

The interest of this piece is that all the elements are together. You can do a scan to see if there are other bones underneath and also clear the other side
In my opinion, you should leave everything together. And you will have less work !!

 

Can you really see inside this block with a CT or MRI scan?  I would think that the fossils and matrix were so similar that you wouldn't see internal specimens differentiated enough.

 

The only reason I would prep it further was to see what else might be in it.

 

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Hi guys... Thanks for all of your thoughts.  It is interesting indeed to see the two camps emerging.  In the interest of keeping y'all upraised, I have made a map and started prepping out some scutes.  My plan (open to modification) is to prep out some of the outlying scutes and get it CT scanned.  

 

Steelhead.. yes it would take a lot of glue to keep the matrix together, but that is not a problem.  The more difficult part is putting some of the scutes back together... some are very fractured.  Most, though are nicely broken into manageable pieces.   

Marcosr... yes, I think this stuff will CT scan very nicely.  The bones are denser than the soft matrix.  At least this has been my experience.  BTW, White River stuff CT's beautifully. 

 

Below is a map of the bones.  I plan to first remove everything outside the gray outline, then see how it looks.  Maybe go for a CT scan tomorrow, if my CT guy is available.     

5a1851e294d5d_mapwlabels.jpg.2856e25affac0cf3eca2a4b58709c528.jpg

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2 hours ago, jpc said:

Marcosr... yes, I think this stuff will CT scan very nicely.  The bones are denser than the soft matrix.  At least this has been my experience.  BTW, White River stuff CT's beautifully. 

 

 

Jean-Pierre

 

Good to know.  Thanks.

 

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Hi JP,

 

As someone who has done similar prep, I agree with Lord Trilobite.  I don't think the decision has to be made yet.  I would work down along the edges and down into the matrix between specimens, cleaning and stabilizing the surface bits first.  I have a friend who has tar pit matrix chunks from Kern County, CA.  On many chunks you see fossils (bird or mammal bones) on the surface and you have to decide whether they are going to be loose specimens or small matrix pieces or whether the whole thing should stay together because it could become a very nice matrix piece.  Usually, there's just whatever you already see plus a couple of things on the opposite end or opposite sides.  A few times, I could see the chunk was thick with bones and I started exposing and cleaning into the surface shaping the whole thing so it had a natural, stable base.  You should save your leftover matrix for that reason.

 

Jess

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