Tiny Mystery Tooth: Dino? Croc? Mos?

[sixgill pete]

I found this tiny tooth today looking through some matrix I had previously searched. I always search any matrix at least a second time after re-cleaning it. The matrix is from a Cretaceous river site here in North Carolina. The site is Black Creek Group, Bladen Formation. It is mainly marine, but many dinosaur teeth and bones are found there. My first thought was croc (Leidysuchus?), far posterior. But soemthing does not look right to me for it to be that. Looking for your thoughts.

 

The tooth is 6.5 mm long,  4.9 mm wide and 4.1 mm tall.

 

I apologize for the pics, my digital microscope is on the fritz. I edited these to try and get the best pictures I could.

 

 

 

 

[jpc]

Posterior alligator tooth indeed.  That's what I see. 

[SailingAlongToo]

@sixgill pete

 

Looks like a posterior "croc" tooth sometimes referred to as a "button tooth." What's the size?

 

Cheers,

[sixgill pete]

Just now, SailingAlongToo said:

@sixgill pete

 

Looks like a posterior "croc" tooth sometimes referred to as a "button tooth." What's the size?

 

Cheers,

 

I just edited the post to add the size. 6.5 mm long, 4.9 mm wide and 4.1 mm tall. The oblong shape is what through me into thinking it might not be croc.

[jpc]

Oblong is normal for these guys.

[sixgill pete]

Sometimes we think to much and see something else. Thanks guys!

[SailingAlongToo]

12 minutes ago, sixgill pete said:

 

I just edited the post to add the size. 6.5 mm long, 4.9 mm wide and 4.1 mm tall. The oblong shape is what through me into thinking it might not be croc.

 

Yeah, the shape made me second guess myself too, so I just checked Cindy's thesis. There are pictures of 2 possibilities that match your tooth, only 1 is croc. You might want to check the Plates in that document.

[jpc]

6 minutes ago, SailingAlongToo said:

 

Yeah, the shape made me second guess myself too, so I just checked Cindy's thesis. There are pictures of 2 possibilities that match your tooth, only 1 is croc. You might want to check the Plates in that document.

Cindy's thesis...?  Tell us more.  

[sixgill pete]

1 minute ago, jpc said:

Cindy's thesis...?  Tell us more.  

 

I will PM you.

[SailingAlongToo]

2 minutes ago, jpc said:

Cindy's thesis...?  Tell us more.  

 

I could, but then I would have to.................   

[Troodon]

Looks very much like a Brachychampsa alligator  tooth from the Hell Creek also found in NJ.  I have some real small specimens.  Not sure if this guy is in NC

[MarcoSr]

Don

 

Here is a tooth ( 5mm diameter) from matrix that Trevor brought me back from what I believe is the same site this summer.  This specimen is round like you are used to seeing.  I figured it was something like Brachychampsa from Hell Creek like Troodon showed above.  I thought your tooth was the same species as mine.  What are they calling these from NC?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr. 

[sixgill pete]

16 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Looks very much like a Brachychampsa alligator  tooth from the Hell Creek also found in NJ.  I have some real small specimens.  Not sure if this guy is in NC

 

1 minute ago, MarcoSr said:

Don

 

Here is a tooth ( 5mm diameter) from matrix that Trevor brought me back from what I believe is the same site this summer.  This specimen is round like you are used to seeing.  I figured it was something like Brachychampsa from Hell Creek like Troodon showed above.  I thought your tooth was the same species as mine.  What are they calling these from NC?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr. 

 

Not sure about Brachchampsa here in N.C. I know we have Thecachampsa in Oligocene and Miocene / Pliocene. As far as I know the small crocodilian teeth from NC have been lumped into either Leidysuchus or Borealosuchus. Kind of a catch all ID. The only one with positive ID are the large croc teeth of Deinosuchus rugosa.

[Troodon]

5 minutes ago, sixgill pete said:

 

 

Not sure about Brachchampsa here in N.C. I know we have Thecachampsa in Oligocene and Miocene / Pliocene. As far as I know the small crocodilian teeth from NC have been lumped into either Leidysuchus or Borealosuchus. Kind of a catch all ID. The only one with positive ID are the large croc teeth of Deinosuchus rugosa.

Those other species also are in the HC but they are croc not gators

[MarcoSr]

57 minutes ago, sixgill pete said:

 

 

Not sure about Brachchampsa here in N.C. I know we have Thecachampsa in Oligocene and Miocene / Pliocene. As far as I know the small crocodilian teeth from NC have been lumped into either Leidysuchus or Borealosuchus. Kind of a catch all ID. The only one with positive ID are the large croc teeth of Deinosuchus rugosa.

 

Don

 

I just looked at Volume IV-1 Reptiles Birds Land Mammals from the NC Fossil Club.  I didn't see any reference to Brachychampsa there or any individual teeth that looked similar at all.  There was a picture of a Borealosuchus sp. juvenile premaxillary fragment with two teeth where one of the teeth looked somewhat similar (Probably just broken to look similar because I wouldn't expect our tooth features in a premaxillary) but the picture wasn't really close enough on the tooth to tell for sure what it really looked like.  The teeth in the picture of the Borealosuchus sp. juvenile individual teeth don't match our teeth.

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

[sixgill pete]

1 hour ago, MarcoSr said:

 

Don

 

I just looked at Volume IV-1 Reptiles Birds Land Mammals from the NC Fossil Club.  I didn't see any reference to Brachychampsa there or any individual teeth that looked similar at all.  There was a picture of a Borealosuchus sp. juvenile premaxillary fragment with two teeth where one of the teeth looked somewhat similar (Probably just broken to look similar because I wouldn't expect our tooth features in a premaxillary) but the picture wasn't really close enough on the tooth to tell for sure what it really looked like.  The teeth in the picture of the Borealosuchus sp. juvenile individual teeth don't match our teeth.

 

 

 

 

Marco Sr.

 

Marco, I had looked through that volume earlier today in hopes of seeing something similar. Nothing close. Here are a few more pics of this tooth alongside a posterior Borealosuchus from the same site. It is about the same size as this tooth. Notice the different overall shape and the difference in the shape of the base of the tooth. I think @Troodon may be on to something with Brachychampsa (alligator) wonder if it is in fact known from N.C. Also makes me wonder how many of these slightly different teeth are sitting in collections as croc teeth? @jpc what are your thoughts on this?

 

In each pic the tooth in question is on the right or bottom

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jpc]

Yeah, as I said above, posterior alligator tooth.  Not sure what genus, if any, is known from the other side of the late Cretaceous sea.  If it was from this side of the seaway, I would be happy with Brachychampsa.  I imagine we have to wait until someone turns uip a nice skull befor we can say it is NOT Brachychampsa over there.  Borealosuchus is a croc, not an alligator.   

[Al Dente]

I don't know the true identity of these button shaped teeth from NC but I have a friend who is pretty good with identification and he claims these are from juvenile Deinosuchus.

[jpc]

my gut reaction is that Deinosuchus is too crocodilian. Do they have button teeth in the back?  I would like to see his line of evidence.  I am still looking for an alligator. 

[Jesuslover340]

 

[Jesuslover340]

So my thoughts:

-Just because it's extremely "button-like" does not preclude it being croc. Some crocs have just as "button-like" teeth as Alligators. I don't have any good examples or pics, but Pallimnarchus is an example of such a croc.

-Just because there's no easily accessible paper record of Alligators existing in NC during the Cretaceous  doesn't mean they didn't exist there. I have an Alligator scute from far north Oklahoma, which is about parallel with NC. Took me forever to find mention that Alligators persisted that far north during the Pliocene-Pleistocene, and even then, it wasn't in a scientific paper so much as a fairly trustworthy website. Not many examples of Alligator fossils in Oklahoma, so no one has probably cared to do a write up on them. Different time periods, I know, but just gives an example of how obscure an occurrence in literature of a species in the fossil record per any given area can be.

 

Anyways, my point is, don't rule out either just yet. Do a bit more research and find what is most compatible for the area

 

Edit: Might look up Bottosaurus, a crocodilian from the Cretaceous that is known from North Carolina.

[jpc]

Bottosaurus... cool.  Thanks for sharing that info, JL340.  I know you do a lot of homework on crocs, do you perchance have a pdf of the paper used as a source in its wikipedia page?

 

Erickson, B. R. (1998). Crocodilians of the Black Mingo Group (Paleocene) of the South Carolina Coastal Plain; pp. 196-214 in A. E. Sanders (ed.), Paleobiology of the Williamsburg Formation (Black Mingo Group; Paleocene) of South Carolina, U. S. A., Transactions of the American Philosophical Society 88(4)

[Jesuslover340]

22 minutes ago, jpc said:

Bottosaurus... cool.  Thanks for sharing that info, JL340.  I know you do a lot of homework on crocs, do you perchance have a pdf of the paper used as a source in its wikipedia page?

 

Erickson, B. R. (1998). Crocodilians of the Black Mingo Group (Paleocene) of the South Carolina Coastal Plain; pp. 196-214 in A. E. Sanders (ed.), Paleobiology of the Williamsburg Formation (Black Mingo Group; Paleocene) of South Carolina, U. S. A., Transactions of the American Philosophical Society 88(4)

 

Can't say I do, but maybe @Fruitbat would?

[Jesuslover340]

http://www.jstor.org/stable/1006674#

 

Or you could log in using your google account and read it on the link above. Found it by using Google Scholar

[sixgill pete]

1 hour ago, Jesuslover340 said:

So my thoughts:

-Just because it's extremely "button-like" does not preclude it being croc. Some crocs have just as "button-like" teeth as Alligators. I don't have any good examples or pics, but Pallimnarchus is an example of such a croc.

-Just because there's no easily accessible paper record of Alligators existing in NC during the Cretaceous  doesn't mean they didn't exist there. I have an Alligator scute from far north Oklahoma, which is about parallel with NC. Took me forever to find mention that Alligators persisted that far north during the Pliocene-Pleistocene, and even then, it wasn't in a scientific paper so much as a fairly trustworthy website. Not many examples of Alligator fossils in Oklahoma, so no one has probably cared to do a write up on them. Different time periods, I know, but just gives an example of how obscure an occurrence in literature of a species in the fossil record per any given area can be.

 

Anyways, my point is, don't rule out either just yet. Do a bit more research and find what is most compatible for the area

 

Edit: Might look up Bottosaurus, a crocodilian from the Cretaceous that is known from North Carolina.

 

Very interesting. I have honestly never hear of Bottosaurus. Never have seen it in any of the literature I have read on North Carolina Crocodilians. Looking at pictures of the teeth online, I have seen some that are very very similar.