Carboniferous from Germany for ID

[ozrit]

 

Hi,

These are from an old collection in Israel. We only know that they are from Germany- Carboniferous.

Any help would be highly appreciated.

Regards.

Oz

[Micah]

Disclaimer: Not an expert by any means and these don’t seem to be very well preserved. I have no idea on the first pictures (same one posted twice?) but the second appears to be Alethopteris serli judging by the vein pattern that is visible. You can look it up to compare in person since you have the advantage of holding the actual fossil.

[oilshale]

Carboniferous from Germany? Very unlikely!

I think these are Palaeoniscum (alternative spelling Palaeoniscus) freieslebeni from the Permian (Kupferschiefer = Coppershale) around Mansfeld and Richelsdorf.

 

[izak_]

I agree with oilshale

[oilshale]

10 minutes ago, Micah said:

Disclaimer: Not an expert by any means and these don’t seem to be very well preserved. I have no idea on the first pictures (same one posted twice?) but the second appears to be Alethopteris serli judging by the vein pattern that is visible. You can look it up to compare in person since you have the advantage of holding the actual fossil.

Alethopteris, vein pattern?

This is a fish, not a fern.

 

[Micah]

I obviously didn’t look closely enough there is clearly a tail... glad there are so many people more experienced than I! I was so focused on it being Carboniferous and a plant I failed to notice everything contrary to that...

11 minutes ago, oilshale said:

Carboniferous from Germany? Very unlikely!

I think these are Palaeoniscum freieslebeni from the Permian (Kupferschiefer Coppershale) around Mansfeld and Richelsdorf.

 

 

[doushantuo]

Tom,not disagreeing with greater knowledge ,but why not e.g. Rhadinichthys ? 

edit: taphonomy?lithology?morphology?

all of the above?

 

[oilshale]

Agreed, Rhadinichthys would look very similar, but I am not aware of a single Carboniferous fish location in Germany. On the other hand, Palaeoniscum is a very common fish.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeoniscum_freieslebeni Sorry, only in German, but you can easily translate the text with https://www.deepl.com/translator  (in my opinion much better than google)

Thomas

[doushantuo]

Also,wie immer werden die fahigkeiten der Hollander im sache andere Sprachen unterschatzt

Rudi Carell,move over

Habe doch keine Deutssprachige street credibility

[oilshale]

2 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

Also,wie immer werden die fahigkeiten der Hollander im sache andere Sprachen unterschatzt

 

Ich meinte garantiert nicht dich! Aber die Übersetzungssoftware ist wirklich Klasse.

 

[doushantuo]

agreed,Google translate is a crime

what about Haspe in Westfalia?(Aldinger,1936/coelacanthids/Acrolepis,I believe)

[oilshale]

12 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

agreed,Google translate is a crime

what about Haspe in Westfalia?(Aldinger,1936/coelacanthids/Acrolepis,I believe)

Ok, ok,  there are a couple of them. Rösenbeck in the Rhenish Mountains is another location. But really not common.

Acrolepis? - no that's a Permian fish also from the Kupferschiefer Formation.

Thomas

[doushantuo]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ludwigia]

I'll go along with Thomas and vote for Permian fish.

[oilshale]

I wasn't aware that Acrolepis can be also found in the Carboniferous of Derbyshire. Seems that Carboniferous fish are more common in UK

[Fossildude19]

Palaeoniscum freieslebeni was my first thought here. 

However, between the poor preservation, and absence of identifying features, it might be best to label it : Palaeoniscidae indet., possibly Palaeoniscum freieslebeni  Blainville, 1818 .

Regards,

 

 

Contrasted some of the photos to try to get more detail. 

 

 

 

 

[doushantuo]

In need of a revision:Canobius,Elonichthys,Rhadinichtys,"Palaeoniscum" 

De Blainville's original spelling was freieslebenense,BTW

Below:from Mickle/Foss.Rec.,2017)

 

Palaeoniscoids have been present in what is now Germany since the Devonian

 

[Miocene_Mason]

Love those rotliegend fish, nice buy!

[Taogan]

Looks like something from the Kupferscheifer to me as well, but I don't think you can get more of an ID on it. When I lived in Sachsen-Anhalt we used to label all the fish like this Palaeoniscid indet and throw them in the back of the cupboard to try and identify them later, we rarely managed it.

[doushantuo]

I think it's Muensterichthys...........

mwah,just kidding

Something i seldom do: Google image search for paleoniscoid: the uninformative indifferent preservation we see here has been elevated to 

something of a standard?

[Fossildude19]

I think the fairly equal sized lobes of the caudal find would dissuade me from Elonichthys.

I think that Pelaeoniscum, being a very common find from these areas is probably a good bet, but the indet.  is the best way to go for ID at this time.

[JohnBrewer]

5 hours ago, Taogan said:

Looks like something from the Kupferscheifer to me as well, but I don't think you can get more of an ID on it. When I lived in Sachsen-Anhalt we used to label all the fish like this Palaeoniscid indet and throw them in the back of the cupboard to try and identify them later, we rarely managed it.

I’ve got a cupboard like that too

[ozrit]

Thank you all very much!

If you think it can help I can take higher quality photos (those were taken with my cellular...) although

it is poorly preserved indeed.

Again, many thanks. 

Regards,

Oz