LordTrilobite Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 So, lets figure out vertebrae from the Kem Kem beds. As many of you know the Kem Kem beds has a pretty enigmatic palaeo fauna. There is some literature about it, but not a whole lot. Some of it is behind a paywall and much information is pretty scattered. So I got this idea that maybe we could combine our knowledge and information to collectively get a better picture of which bone belongs to which animal, in this case, vertebrae. I know some of you have some fantastic specimens in your collections, if we combine these in this thread we might be able to see some patterns. We probably won't be able to put a genus or species name on each type, but perhaps assigning certain vertebrae to a morphotype might be possible. With that I encourage everyone that has any vertebrae from the Kem Kem beds to share photos of their specimens and post them here so we can use this thread as a sort of library as well as an ID thread that everyone can use to better ID their Kem Kem vertebrae. So please, share your photos! And it might help to number your specimens for easier reference. I will be updating this first post as new information arises with examples to make ID easier. Theropods Spinosaurids Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Spinosaurus is known for it's tall neural spines, which are pretty characteristic. Unlike Sigilmassasaurus, Spinosaurus does not have the ventral triangular rough plateau on the centra Spinosaurus mid cervical vertebra Spinosaurus dorsal, sacral and caudal vertebrae Caudal vertebrae Nearly complete tail from the neotype specimen of Spinosaurus aegyptiacus Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis Sigilmassasaurus is a Spinosaurid that might be closely related to Baryonyx and Suchomimus. It differs from Spinosaurus in that it has a ventral keel on many vertebrae and a triangular rough plateau on the bottom back end. A is Sigilmassasaurus, B is Baryonyx Sigilmassasaurus cervical vertebrae From anterior to posterior Sigilmassasaurus dorsal vertebrae Indeterminate Spinosaurid vertebrae Not a whole lot has been published yet, some bones can probably not be ID'd on genus level. Spinosaurid caudal vertebrae Anterior caudal: From LordTrilobite's collection Mid-posterior caudal: From Paleoworld-101's collection Mid-posterior caudal: From LordTrilobite's collection This caudal vertebra is less tall and more pinched in the middle of the centrum than the one from Paleoworld-101's collection. Likely due to a slightly more posterior position. Mid-posterior caudal: From LordTrilobite's collection Carcharodontosaurids Due to an old paper Sigilmassasaurus vertebrae are sometimes misidentified as Carcharodontosaurid. These vertebrae should be identified on the basis of the original description by Stromer. Two species of Carcharodontosaurids are known from the Kem Kem beds at this time. Carcharodontosaurus saharicus and Sauroniops pachytholus. Carcharodontosaurid cervical vertebrae Deltadromeus agilis Anterior (left) and mid (right) caudals better examples needed Abelisauroids Indeterminate Abelisauroid distal caudal From LordTrilobite's collection Abelisaurid dorsal vertebrae From Troodon's collection Sauropods Rebbachisaurus garasbae Not a whole lot is known about this titanosaur, as only a few bones have been found. Notice that the vertebrae are very extensively pneumaticised. Rebbachisaurus dorsal vertebrae Sauropod mid caudal vertebra. Possibly Rebbachisaurid. Unnamed Titanosaurian mid caudal vertebra Crocodilomorphs more examples needed Kemkemia This crocodile is only known by a single posterior caudal vertebra. Kemkemia caudal vertebra Turtles examples needed Pterosaurs Azhdarchids Azhdarchid (probably Alanqa) posterior fragment cervical vertebra Azhdarchid Mid cervical vertebra Sources Spinosaurids https://peerj.com/articles/1323/?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_campaign=PeerJ_TrendMD_1&utm_medium=TrendMD http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0144695 Sauropods Jeffrey A. Wilson & Ronan Allain (2015) Osteology of Rebbachisaurus garasbae Lavocat, 1954, a diplodocoid (Dinosauria, Sauropoda) from the early Late Cretaceous–aged Kem Kem beds of southeastern Morocco, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, 35:4, e1000701, DOI: 10.1080/02724634.2014.1000701 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/304214496_Evidence_of_a_derived_titanosaurian_Dinosauria_Sauropoda_in_the_Kem_Kem_beds_of_Morocco_with_comments_on_sauropod_paleoecology_in_the_Cretaceous_of_Africa Kemkemia sisn.pagepress.org/index.php/nhs/article/viewFile/nhs.2012.119/32 Pterosaurs https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thefossilforum.com%2Fapplications%2Fcore%2Finterface%2Ffile%2Fattachment.php%3Fid%3D432009&fname=journal.pone.0010875.PDF&pdf=true https://riviste.unimi.it/index.php/RIPS/article/view/5967 19 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 So I'll start here with my own Kem Kem vertebrae. Most of the are quite incomplete, which makes identification harder of course. I have a few of them figured out. But others are quite problematic. Here are the side and top views. Gimme a shout if I need to make some better photos of specific specimens. I've numbered all of them for easier reference. Numbers 1 to 3 are all clearly Spinosaurid and likely Sigilmassasaurus due to the small neural process and strong keels. Nr. 2 threw me off a bit since it's so incredibly small but the morphology seems pretty consistent with Sigilmassasaurus. Nr. 4 compared well with a Carcharodontosaurid vertebra @Troodon once posted on the forum, though I still have my doubts if my ID is correct. It's a pretty fragmentary chunk ofc. Nr. 5 looks like a croc cervical to me but it being concave at both ends is throwing me off as most good examples I can find of croc verts have a convex end as well. Nr. 6 should be identifiable as it's a complete neural arch, it seems to compare favourably to the cervicals of some crocs. And the zygapophyses on the front and back seem much to wide and oriented wrong to be Theropod. Nr. 1 Nr. 3 Nr. 7 is my largest Kem Kem vertebra, the size along eliminates a lot of animals. it's much too fat around the middle for any Spinosaurid imo. It seems quite heavily built so I think Sauropods can be ruled out as well. So the only really gigantic animals that are left are Carcharodontosaurids. Nr. 8 is a really weird one that I cannot place. It's quite fat, but also hollow in places and the centrum has one side at an angle. Due to it being hollow makes me think it's Theropod but I haven't been able to find a match yet. Nr. 9 is the back end of a sacrum. It compares pretty well to crocs, it seems fairly heavily built and the centrum is wider than tall. Nr. 10 I bought this one as a Deltadromeus vertebra. But I can't find any good reference of this animal so I dunno. Nr. 11 a dorsal vert with a rather wide neural canal, no clue really. Nr. 12 A nice little fragment, but not very informative. Don't think this can be ID'd Nr. 8 Nr. 9 Nr. 10 Nr. 13 A rather tall caudal vert that compares well with vertebrae attributed to Spinosaurids. But it's hard to find any really good reference. Nr. 14 Really latterally flat caudal vert, theropod? Nr. 15 caudal vert from near the end of the tail, also seems pretty slenderly built. Theropod? Nr. 16 and 17 Though 17 is much more damaged, the centra are the exact same shape. Also fairly slender. Nr. 18 I've posted this weird vertebra on the forum before as it's really bizarre. The centrum has a lateral pinch in the middle and directly above it there is a bulbous area that flares out to the sides. The consensus on the forum was that this is likely from a crocodile. Nr. 19 Another weird caudal from the very end of the tail. What's strange about this one is that the neural canal is really wide. I read somewhere that such a wide neural canal in this area of the tail is common for crocs. Nr. 20 A really small anterior caudal vertebra of a dinosaur. It has some hollow areas and it compares well with Theropods. But I haven't been able to find a good match yet. Judging from the size I'd say this animal was probably no bigger than 2 metres. Nr. 20 So those are my vertebrae from Kem Kem so far. I'd suggest people start posting theirs so we can compare them in the hopes that we might learn more about them. 14 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Citizen science at its very best!! What a fantastic idea. I wish I had something to contribute but I will certainly follow this thread with interest. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Nice thread - needed but I'm not sure we have enough information from publications to really make a positive determination on vertebrae in our collections with a few exceptions. Most should be labeled theropod indet. Trying to even assign it to a family other than cervical Sigilmassasaurus is difficult. What I find most difficult is differentiating between Theropod and Croc and most sellers lean toward Theropod. If not listed hard for me to make any determination NR1 for example - it may be a Sigilmassasaurus but unless you can compare your specimen to other large theropods it may be something else NR3 - Spinosaurid indet. NR5 - Agree NR7 - Agree NR11 - Agree but could be a caudal NR13 - Theropod indet NR14 to 16 - Agree NR 18 - Agree NR20 - I believe is a Crocodile 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Some of my Vertebrae Pterosaur Cervical 5" long (12.7 cm) Caudal of indet Abelisaurid Caudal Vertebra Croc? 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Thank you for posting this any chance we could get that description of carchardonosaurus by stromer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max-fossils Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 What I have to say: get this pinned!!! @Fossildude19 Great topic, thanks a lot for posting. Max Derème "I feel an echo of the lightning each time I find a fossil. [...] That is why I am a hunter: to feel that bolt of lightning every day." - Mary Anning >< Remarkable Creatures, Tracy Chevalier Instagram: @world_of_fossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 I've updated the first post with Kemkemia. a crocodile known only by a single caudal vertebra. And I'm glad to see more photos already! 20 minutes ago, Troodon said: Nice thread - needed but I'm not sure we have enough information from publications to really make a positive determination on vertebrae in our collections with a few exceptions. Most should be labeled theropod indet. Trying to even assign it to a family other than cervical Sigilmassasaurus is difficult. What I find most difficult is differentiating between Theropod and Croc and most sellers lean toward Theropod. If not listed hard for me to make any determination NR1 for example - it may be a Sigilmassasaurus but unless you can compare your specimen to other large theropods it may be something else NR3 - Spinosaurid indet. NR5 - Agree NR7 - Agree NR11 - Agree but could be a caudal NR13 - Theropod indet NR14 to 16 - Agree NR 18 - Agree NR20 - I believe is a Crocodile Nr. 1 and 3 are both pretty much identical to two specimens in the Evers paper on Sigilmassasaurus. Nr.1 being almost comparable to the holotype of Spinosaurus maroccanus, which is considered a synonym of Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis. And I agree with that. Nr.3 is comparable to a vertebra that Evers tentatively attributes to Sigilmassasaurus. So I feel confident in saying that nr.1 is definitely Sigilmassasaurus and nr.3 is probably referable to this genus as well. Nr. 11 caudal? that's interesting I'll have to investigate that. Nr. 20 All the dinosaur experts at the museum say this a caudal vert from a dinosaur. And as I said, it's also hollow in places. Though I will definitely look into the possibility of it being croc. Thanks for the comments! 15 minutes ago, Troodon said: Some of my Vertebrae Turtle? Cervical 5" long (12.7 cm) Caudal of unknown Theropod Croc or Theropod? Caudal Vertebra That possible turtle vert looks pretty interesting. How sure are you of this ID? Because if you're pretty sure I can add photos to the first post for reference. If that's okay of course. Your second vertebra of an unknown theropod looks pretty similar to my nr. 15 caudal vert. Though yours is more complete, both seem to have a ridge running along the sides of the centrum (it might not be very visible in my photo but it looks pretty similar to yours imo). That third vertebra reminds me of that caudal vert of Kemkemia, which is a croc. So I would lean more towards croc than theropod. 12 minutes ago, Haravex said: Thank you for posting this any chance we could get that description of carchardonosaurus by stromer? Sadly I don't have it. So I only posted the Carcharodontosaurus vert that was in Evers' paper about Sigilmassasaurus. Apparently that ID was based on the original description of Stromer. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 8 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said: I've updated the first post with Kemkemia. a crocodile known only by a single caudal vertebra. And I'm glad to see more photos already! Nr. 1 and 3 are both pretty much identical to two specimens in the Evers paper on Sigilmassasaurus. Nr.1 being almost comparable to the holotype of Spinosaurus maroccanus, which is considered a synonym of Sigilmassasaurus brevicollis. And I agree with that. Nr.3 is comparable to a vertebra that Evers tentatively attributes to Sigilmassasaurus. So I feel confident in saying that nr.1 is definitely Sigilmassasaurus and nr.3 is probably referable to this genus as well. Nr. 11 caudal? that's interesting I'll have to investigate that. Nr. 20 All the dinosaur experts at the museum say this a caudal vert from a dinosaur. And as I said, it's also hollow in places. Though I will definitely look into the possibility of it being croc. Thanks for the comments! That possible turtle vert looks pretty interesting. How sure are you of this ID? Because if you're pretty sure I can add photos to the first post for reference. If that's okay of course. Your second vertebra of an unknown theropod looks pretty similar to my nr. 15 caudal vert. Though yours is more complete, both seem to have a ridge running along the sides of the centrum (it might not be very visible in my photo but it looks pretty similar to yours imo). That third vertebra reminds me of that caudal vert of Kemkemia, which is a croc. So I would lean more towards croc than theropod. First vert, not sure at all was sold to me as a pterosaur by knowledgeable people. Second vert, agree That third vert could be a Kemkemia, I've looked at it before but other than the location of the spine the other features are different and we only have the one in the holotype to compare against. However would lean more toward croc than theropod, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Well naturally it would be a little different from Kemkemia since your 3rd vertebra has lateral processes. So it's further up the tail in position, while the holotype of Kemkemia looks to be pretty far down the tail. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I said that N11 could be caudal and although neural canal is not as wide as yours it widens closer to the hip. Struthiomimus I believe your last vert is crock because the spine should be flat it has ribs in it somewhat similiar to the photo. Also the Centrum is bowed (arched) typical of croc's. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 Hm, that is interesting. I'll look into it. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Took some quick pictures of my one armed croc vert. Out of focus Phone pic...will send some better ones next week, holiday week, traveling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Great thread Olof. Ive got a couple of what I think are theropod caudal verts, they’re at work so will photograph them when I’m in next but I do have a spino at home which I’ll post later today. John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 My contribution to this thread i've gone with most of them having too little characteristics to id, but maybe can add something to the understanding of vertebrae material from the kem kem region. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Took some additional pictures of the cf Kemkemia vert. Neural canal its smaller still and faces of the two ends on the Kemkimia are not parallel, they are on my specimen. Still unclear to me. Spinosaurid caudal. Largest image I could find from new Spino paper 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 The smallest one was suggested by troodon to be turtle or reptile might be nice to add to your id guide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 11 minutes ago, Haravex said: The smallest one was suggested by troodon to be turtle or reptile might be nice to add to your id guide. Looks like croc 11 minutes ago, Haravex said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 ok that one could be added to the post i will try and get a better more overview friendly image of it tomorrow and better quality trying to take pictures at night time is a bit hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 You may want to consider using Fruitbats library to see whats PDF's are available from South America or other localities where similar families exist. Here is one I looked at and a couple of uncropped pages of a Carch from Argentina Coria, R.A. and P.J. Currie (2006). A new carcharodontosaurid (Dinosauria, Theropoda) from the Upper Cretaceous of Argentina. Geodiversitas, 28(1). 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Pterosauria Azhdarchidae Nessov, 1984 Azhdarchidae indet. Material: Mid-cervical vertebrae (CMN 50801 and LINHM 014) reference: T. Rodrigues. 2011. New pterosaur specimens from the Kem Kem beds (Upper Cretaceous, Cenomanian) of Morocco. Rivista Italiana di Paleontologia e Stratigrafia, vol. 117, no. 1: 149-160 Azhdarchidae gen. et sp. indet. Material. A fragment of the posterior termination of a midseries cervical vertebra (FSAC-KK 34); (Figures 5 and 6, Table 2).Locality. Aferdou N’Chaft, near Begaa, Province d’Errachidia, Morocco, 30. 53. 51 230 N 3. 52. 13 420 E.Horizon. Kem Kem beds, Cenomanian [32]. reference: N. Ibrahim et al. 2010. A New Pterosaur (Pterodactyloidea: Azhdarchidae) from the Upper Cretaceous of Morocco. PLoS ONE 5(5): 1-11 "Other azhdarchid material from the Kem Kem Beds. In addition to the jaw remains assigned to Alanqa and the fragmentary cervical, described above, several additional fossils from the Kem Kem beds have been identified as azhdarchid. These include a complete mid-series cervical [25], a large humerus, another cervical vertebra and a fragmentary rostrum [63]. We are also aware of further undescribed specimens including a well preserved cervical vertebra that appear to be azhdarchid. Alanqa is still insufficiently well known for us to be able to demonstrate that some, possibly all, of this postcranial material belongs to this pterosaur, thus no formal assignments are made here. However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, we think it reasonable to assume that all these azhdarchid remains likely pertain to Alanqa. " 4 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Here is another example of Gualicho shinyae that has strong affinities to Deltadromeus Apesteguia, S., et al. (2016). An Unusual New Theropod with a Didactyl Manus from the Upper Cretaceous of Patagonia, Argentina. PLoS ONE, 11(7 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Sauropoda Marsh, 1878 Neosauropoda Bonaparte, 1986 Titanosauriformes Salgado, Coria, and Calvo, 1997 Titanosauria Bonaparte and Coria, 1993 Lithostrotia Upchurch, Barrett, and Dodson, 2004 Material. FSAC-KK 7000, an isolated middle caudal vertebra accessioned in the collections of the Université Hassan II (Faculté des Sciences Aïn Chock), Casablanca, Morocco.Age and horizon. “Kem Kem beds,” middle Cretaceous (possibly Albian to lower Cenomanian). The specimen was surfacecollected by a local man and had likely eroded out of the lower Kem Kem unit. No associated remains were found despite an extensive search of the vicinity.Locality. Gara Sbaa area, Er Rachidia Province, Morocco. reference: N. Ibrahim et al. 2016. Evidence of a derived titanosaurian (Dinosauria, Sauropoda) in the “Kem Kem beds” of Morocco, with comments on sauropod paleoecology in the Cretaceous of Africa. In A. Khosla, S.G. Lucas (eds), Cretaceous Period: Biotic Diversity and Biogeography. vol. 71, New Mexico Museum of Natural History & Science, Albuquerque, New Mexico, pp. 149-159. 5 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Bad quality images (phone) of my spino vert. It needs a lot of work on it and there’s lots reconstruction that’s bad to say the least but it was ridiculously cheap from a very well regarded dealer. 2 John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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