Kem Kem Vertebrae ID Thread

[Miocene_Mason]

Interesting thread, I’ve had to read up on all my Kem Kem Dino phylogeny again (feel like it changes every few months).

[Paleoworld-101]

Here's my contribution. 

 

Spinosaurus caudal vertebra from the mid section of the tail. Measures about 7 inches tall. The guy i bought it from prepped it and uncovered what he thinks is a bite mark on the side (last photo), i'm not so sure though. What do you guys think? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LordTrilobite]

Btw, in a thread with so many images the pages are bound to get really long to scroll through. But it's actually possible to scale the pictures down to save space by clicking on them to activate the scale options. And the images can still be clicked on to view the full size picture, so nothing is lost.

 

All great additions to the thread though. I'll be updating the first post with some of those Kem Kem papers.

15 hours ago, Haravex said:

My contribution to this thread i've gone with most of them having too little characteristics to id, but maybe can add something to the understanding of vertebrae material from the kem kem region.

 

That first looks like a caudal vertebra. It also looks very similar to my nr. 14 vertebra. Mine is about the same in preservation though a dorsal spine is glued on to mine. Your second one looks really interesting, I don't think I've seen that shape of vert from Kem Kem before. My thinking is that this might be a cervical vert, but I'm really not sure.

 

15 hours ago, Haravex said:

This one looks pretty interesting as well. It seems to be part of a neural arch. But the weird angles make it hard to tell what it might be. Perhaps you could post a picture from the side? In that first photo I can definitely see the unfused suture where it would connect with the centrum, so that rough area is the bottom.

 

15 hours ago, Troodon said:

Took some quick pictures of my one armed croc vert. Out of focus  Phone pic...will send some better ones next week, holiday week, traveling.

I'd say this one looks a lot like my nr. 6 vert. The main difference I see is that mine doesn't have lateral processes high up whereas yours does. Same animal but positional difference perhaps? Yours looks like it's a dorsal vertebra. I'm thinking mine is cervical. I'm likely to make a scan of mine fairly soon. When I do that I'll be sure to share it in this thread.

 

11 hours ago, JohnBrewer said:

Bad quality images (phone) of my spino vert. It needs a lot of work on it and there’s lots reconstruction that’s bad to say the least but it was ridiculously cheap from a very well regarded dealer.

 

 

Hm, it's hard to tell exactly what has been reconstructed or repaired. Have you considered cleaning it a little? that might give a better idea as to how much it has been tampered with. Still it does seem like a pretty nice piece. And I'd agree that this looks like a Spinosaurid. With that little bump of a neural process on top I think this looks like a posterior cervical vertebra.

11 hours ago, Paleoworld-101 said:

Here's my contribution. 

 

Spinosaurus caudal vertebra from the mid section of the tail. Measures about 7 inches tall. The guy i bought it from prepped it and uncovered what he thinks is a bite mark on the side (last photo), i'm not so sure though. What do you guys think?

 

Oh nice one, I definitely agree with your ID. It looks like the tip of the neural process has been composited though. Nevertheless this is a rather good clean example of a caudal Spino vert. Could I perhaps post this one in the first post to add it to the list?

[Paleoworld-101]

3 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

Oh nice one, I definitely agree with your ID. It looks like the tip of the neural process has been composited though. Nevertheless this is a rather good clean example of a caudal Spino vert. Could I perhaps post this one in the first post to add it to the list?

It's quite possible. Certainly has a lot of that icky 'sediment glue' the Moroccan diggers like to use. The centrum is particularly nice though. Sure, go ahead!

[LordTrilobite]

Alright thanks. I've added it to the first post.

 

 

Btw, if anyone sees a mistake in the first post please say so, so that I can fix it. I'd like to add only the ID's we're quite sure of in the first post so that it's as accurate as possible.

[Troodon]

I believe this is Abelisauridae

[LordTrilobite]

Wow that vertebra certainly takes the cake in the beauty contest. What a fantastic piece.

Anyway, wasn't there evidence of possibly more Sauropods in Kem Kem? And are you sure this is actually from a Sauropod?

 

The lack of pneumaticity on the actual centrum makes me thinks this might be something else. Though the top looks heavily pneumaticised, could this perhaps be from an Abelisaur? I've actually never seen any confirmed Abelisaur vertebrae from Kem Kem. But this one does seem to show some resemblance with the dorsals of Majungasaurus.

Click for larger view.

[fifbrindacier]

Great and useful thread Olof, thank you for this.

[JohnBrewer]

7 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

Have you considered cleaning it a little?

That’s the plan. It’s difficult to see on the images I’ve posted but plaster has been added to the ends of the processes. The dealer was totally open about this. I paid £16 plus shipping 

[LordTrilobite]

3 hours ago, JohnBrewer said:

That’s the plan. It’s difficult to see on the images I’ve posted but plaster has been added to the ends of the processes. The dealer was totally open about this. I paid £16 plus shipping 

Wow that certainly is a great deal, even with the reconstructing/repairs on it. Looking forward to see what you make of it.

[Haravex]

I will try to get a better set of pictures for the neural arch the problem with it is trying to get it photographed without it falling over 

[Troodon]

22 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

Wow that vertebra certainly takes the cake in the beauty contest. What a fantastic piece.

Anyway, wasn't there evidence of possibly more Sauropods in Kem Kem? And are you sure this is actually from a Sauropod?

 

The lack of pneumaticity on the actual centrum makes me thinks this might be something else. Though the top looks heavily pneumaticised, could this perhaps be from an Abelisaur? I've actually never seen any confirmed Abelisaur vertebrae from Kem Kem. But this one does seem to show some resemblance with the dorsals of Majungasaurus.

Click for larger view.

No I'm never positive about anything about of Kem Kem especially verts and never really studied this specimen.  It 

has the processes similar to the Rebach but like you point out lacks the pneumaticity with no pleurocoel.  You make a good point, not home right now and need to do some more investigation.  Thanks but points out that the lack of comparative material makes this a difficult task and the only alternative is to look at close affinities to other species.

[Troodon]

I am a member of SVP and have access to their journals.  Here is the holotype verts of Rebbach. 

 

 Jeffrey A. Wilson & Ronan Allain (2015) Osteology of Rebbachisaurus
garasbae Lavocat, 1954, a diplodocoid (Dinosauria, Sauropoda) from the early Late
Cretaceous–aged Kem Kem beds of southeastern Morocco, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology,
35:4, e1000701, DOI: 10.1080/02724634.2014.1000701
 

[Troodon]

On 11/21/2017 at 12:54 PM, Troodon said:

Some of my Vertebrae

Turtle?  Cervical 5" long  (12.7 cm)

 

 

Caudal of unknown Theropod

 

 

 

Think I may have an ID on this caudal pretty tight match. Abelsaurid indet.

 

Matthew T. Carrano, Scott D. Sampson & Catherine A. Forster (2002): The osteology of Masiakasaurus
knopfleri, a small abelisauroid (Dinosauria: Theropoda) from the Late Cretaceous of Madagascar, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, 22:3, 510-534
 

 

[LordTrilobite]

On 11/22/2017 at 1:20 PM, Troodon said:

I believe this is Rebbachisaurus but have nothing to compare against

 

On 11/23/2017 at 12:21 PM, Troodon said:

I am a member of SVP and have access to their journals.  Here is the holotype verts of Rebbach. 

 Jeffrey A. Wilson & Ronan Allain (2015) Osteology of Rebbachisaurus
garasbae Lavocat, 1954, a diplodocoid (Dinosauria, Sauropoda) from the early Late
Cretaceous–aged Kem Kem beds of southeastern Morocco, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology,
35:4, e1000701, DOI: 10.1080/02724634.2014.1000701

I've added the Rebbachisaurus images and paper to the original post. But comparing it to your rather nice vertebra, it does look like it's also a dorsal vertebra and it does share some features, such as that it's pretty heavily pneumaticised and delicate in areas. But as I said before, it's notable that the centra seem quite different as your vert completely seems to lack the lateral pleurocoel. The Rebbachisaurus vertebra here also is much, much taller. And if you look at the neural process, from a dorsal view, that of Rebbachisaurus has a cross shape. While you're seems to have a rather standard rectangle shape that is also much fatter than the Rebbachisaurus example. I don't think it really matches.

On 11/23/2017 at 12:50 PM, Troodon said:

Think I may have an ID on this caudal pretty tight match. Abelsaurid indet.

Matthew T. Carrano, Scott D. Sampson & Catherine A. Forster (2002): The osteology of Masiakasaurus
knopfleri, a small abelisauroid (Dinosauria: Theropoda) from the Late Cretaceous of Madagascar, Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology, 22:3, 510-534

 

I definitely agree that this vertebra looks a lot like your example from your own collection (as well as my less complete example). It also seems to share the lateral ridge on the centrum. Though Masiakasaurus is not an Abelisaurid. It's in Abelisauroidea. But it's actually in the Noasauridae family.

What I'm wondering now is how it compares to other families of Theropods. Abelisauroidea might be warranted, but I think we need some more comparative material to put a family name on it. But this is a pretty interesting lead.

 

Edit: I'm looking through some papers, compared the caudal vert to deinonychus, it does not match.

also compared it to Mapusaurus, a Carcharodontosaurid, which also does not match.

Gonna need some Abelisaurid and Spinosaur examples I think but I think you're on the right track.

Sources:

Osteology of Deinonychus antirrhopus, an Unusual Theropod from the Lower Cretaceous of Montana

A new carcharodontosaurid (Dinosauria, Theropoda) from the Upper Cretaceous of Argentina

 

Here is an example of the distal caudal vertebrae of Majungasaurus. It's a little similar to your caudal vertebral, but it seems like it's not as good a match as Masiakasaurus is. It also seems to lack the lateral ridge on the centrum.

 

Edit: I'm looking through that paper of Masiakasaurus and I found another vertebra that matches. I can't find the images online to share them here. But in the paper on figure 8 the dorsal vertebra centrum is nearly identical to my Nr. 11. The shape, wide neural canal and even hollow space.

 

[Troodon]

I think your correct with that big vert but again need to do some more investigation.  Im on my phone and have limited capability.  If  Masiakasaurus is in the Neosauridae family then the possibility of it be a deltadromeus are high.  Need to follow that one also but it would be super if thats the case.

[LordTrilobite]

41 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I think your correct with that big vert but again need to do some more investigation.  Im on my phone and have limited capability.  If  Masiakasaurus is in the Neosauridae family then the possibility of it be a deltadromeus are high.  Need to follow that one also but it would be super if thats the case.

Deltadromeus was indeed considered a Noasaurid at one point. But wasn't it recently shown to be a Neovenatorid?

But for now I think cf. Abelisauroidea indet might be a good ID for both that distal caudal vert and my dorsal centrum.

[Haravex]

Forgot to add this one, should help has most of the processes still complete. 

[Troodon]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:50 AM, LordTrilobite said:

Deltadromeus was indeed considered a Noasaurid at one point. But wasn't it recently shown to be a Neovenatorid?

But for now I think cf. Abelisauroidea indet might be a good ID for both that distal caudal vert and my dorsal centrum.

Yes forgot about Gualicho shinyae. 

 

Haravex shared this vertebra from Oceans of Kansas .  It's much smaller than the one I posted but there  some resemblance between the two specimens so it might be pterosaur like it was sold to me.

[LordTrilobite]

On 11/26/2017 at 11:15 PM, Haravex said:

Forgot to add this one, should help has most of the processes still complete. 

Good specimen as well as very good photos. The only thing missing is a scale. I don't immediately recognise this vert. But it looks like it's a caudal vertebra in any case.

17 hours ago, Troodon said:

Yes forgot about Gualicho shinyae. 

 

Haravex shared this vertebra from Oceans of Kansas .  It's much smaller than the one I posted but there  some resemblance between the two specimens so it might be pterosaur like it was sold to me.

That's pretty interesting. There are of course rumours of Pteranodontids being in Kem Kem as well. Might be a good idea to try and compare Pteranodontid vertebrae with those of Azhdarchids and Ornithocheirids.

[Troodon]

Here is a stunning Croc distal caudal vertebra that is currently being sold on auction as dinosaurian.  Great pictures and good to add to this tread and a good reference item since it's currently incorrectly identified.

 

 

 

 

Almost a dead ringer to the Hell Creek Brachychampsa

[LordTrilobite]

I was just about to post these same photos, but you beat me to it.

I didn't actually know what type of animal it was, so I'm glad you recognised it. And it is indeed a nice piece.

 

That makes me wonder if there are Alligators in Kem Kem. As Brachychampsa is a type of Alligator. Though I do not know if there are any specific identifiable differences in the tails between Crocodiles and Alligators.

[Troodon]

Good point.  Not sure with the differences in tails but here is another photo of a gator, Deinosuchus. It would sound reasonable that they exist since most cretaceous faunas have them but the Kem Kem is so different who knows.  Kemkemia looks somewhat similar but we only have one to compare against. Lots of unusual Crocodylomorphs in this fauna which is different.  

 

[LordTrilobite]

I made a small update to the original post. I came across this Azhdarchid paper that has a few more scraps of information. Luckily this includes some nice pictures of a complete mid cervical vertebra. So I've added these to the original post, but I'll add them here as well for easier reading.

 

https://riviste.unimi.it/index.php/RIPS/article/view/5967

 

Click for larger image.

 

[Troodon]

At Tucson show

Spinosaurid what position do you believe ?

 

Caudal

 

Carcharodontosaurid.