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D.N.FossilmanLithuania

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Dear Guys,

 

Last week I was in the coal quarry, Donbass (Ukraine) and found this skin impression in coal shale. 

The age is Gzhelian- Early Aselian (Carboniferous and Permian boundary) and judging by the scale texture I can see that scales were very thin (like in the birds and dinosaurs)

so I think it was quite proggressive reptile and it could be the early synapsid. In synapsids scales could be gradually dissapearing like in dinosaurs and birds- they do not look like thick osteoderms.

I tried to find information about Carboniferous reptile skin fossils but I not found anything... 

I think it could be very rare find, so please help to identify this if you could :) 

 

Best Regards

Domas    

Reptile skin in coal.JPG

Reptile skin in coal 2.JPG

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Dear Foozil,

I agree that specimen looks similar to fish but it is one strange feature- the different form and size of scales in the fossil.

So the reptile (e.g. lizard) head scales look much more similar to me. :)

 

Regards

Domas  

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4 minutes ago, D.N.FossilmanLithuania said:

Dear Foozil,

I agree that specimen looks similar to fish but it is one strange feature- the different form and size of scales in the fossil.

So the reptile (e.g. lizard) head scales look much more similar to me. :)

 

Regards

Domas  

Interesting. Could we have some close ups of the scales?

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The similarity of the dark shapes beneath suggests that the shapes are molds of whatever those are. Plant material seems most likely.

Close ups showing finer surface texture could easily change the thought though.

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What is the size of this item?

Could you post pictures with a ruler or scale in them?

 

The Donbass area is well known on here for it's plant fossils, thanks to Forum Member RomanK

Have a look through his Album of Carboniferous Fossil Plants.

A few pictures in that album of Bothrodendron bark  look similar to your item. 

This is, in my opinion, a much more likely explanation of your item.

 

@RomanK @paleoflor @docdutronc @fiddlehead

 

Maybe one of these plant experts can chime in. :)

Regards,

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

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1 minute ago, Fossildude19 said:

What is the size of this item?

Could you post pictures with a ruler or scale in them?

 

But he's already got scales in the picture! :ighappy:

Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite

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My first thought was a bark impression, also.  Coupled with the age, and the mention of coal measures, it seems most likely.  Hopefully someone will pin it down.  Neat specimen.  

Finding my way through life; one fossil at a time.

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With out looking at it with my magnifier, at a glance it looks like the trunk base of Sigillaria. I've found that at the base of the tree (I'm guessing close to the ground) the bark forms little bumpies that eventually turn into the bark 'scales'. 

This info is just from what I've learned by sight,not from any books or written papers. 

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Dear Guys,

Thank you very much for the first impressions. :) Now I made the close ups of the skin parts and scales, I also found one isolated leaf like scale about 4 mm from the main fossil.

The size of skin impression is 25 mm. :)   Look at these textures of one fossil and tell, what do you think. :) 

 

Best Regards

Domas 

reptile skin parts 1.jpg

reptile skin parts 2.jpg

reptile skin parts 3.jpg

reptile skin parts 4.jpg

reptile skin parts 5.jpg

reptile skin parts 6.jpg

reptile isolated scale.jpg

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1 hour ago, Dewbunny said:

Ok,now I'm 99% positive...

Sigillaria: Lepidodendron

possibly from the base of trunk or cone.

The OP's item has rounded imprinted bumps, whereas the Lepidodendron shows diamond shapes, so I would question Lepidodendron as an ID. 

 

Can you please post the source of your picture.  ;) 

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

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16 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

The OP's item has rounded imprinted bumps, whereas the Lepidodendron shows diamond shapes, so I would question Lepidodendron as an ID. 

 

Can you please post the source of your picture.  ;) 

Yes Lepidodendron does have diamond shaped scales but when they are at the base of the cone and sometimes the base of the trunk they take on a bumpy rounded scale. I have a piece/fossil showing this but I currently have 154 specimens out on the table and I've lost tract of a few.

 

My apologies for the lack of source:

Review of Palaeobotany and Palynology

Volume 131, Issues 1–2, August 2004, Pages 49-89
 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0034666704000430

 

 

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No worries. It's just proper to source pictures when they don't belong to you.  :) 

Link to the Free PDF.

 

I'm not really seeing anything in that paper that compares favorably with the OP's item. :unsure: 

 

OP's original photos, enlarged and contrasted:

5a15402b56c7c_Reptileskinincoal.thumb.JPG.a9b7805e5c09a225af4e3077549d1f19.JPG    5a154034d1a0f_Reptileskinincoal2.thumb.JPG.a8511e17e80c69e898385bb37f763e00.JPG

    Tim    -  VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER

   MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png      PaleoPartner.png.30c01982e09b0cc0b7d9d6a7a21f56c6.png.a600039856933851eeea617ca3f2d15f.png     Postmaster1.jpg.900efa599049929531fa81981f028e24.jpg    VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png  VFOTM  --- APRIL - 2015  

__________________________________________________
"In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks."

John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~   ><))))( *>  About Me      

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cool specimen. Kind of look like scales to me also, but the pattern is so random

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What I see is slightly irregular leptoid scales on a block of shale with fusain. I can't make them into reptile though, even though it does look a bit like modern reptile skin, especially thinking about the age of the sample. Reptiles at the end of the Carboniferous were not so common. I am more inclined to say plant as it is more likely, but we need some really clear close up pictures to see if there is any structure to the individual scales that might give a few more clues.

 

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7 hours ago, D.N.FossilmanLithuania said:

Dear Guys,

Thank you very much for the first impressions. :) Now I made the close ups of the skin parts and scales, I also found one isolated leaf like scale about 4 mm from the main fossil.

The size of skin impression is 25 mm. :)   Look at these textures of one fossil and tell, what do you think. :) 

 

Best Regards

Domas 

A quick iPhone tweak

 

14524853-138D-4E33-A32C-C7AA83F4E6EA.jpeg.3cd90d0878f4421dc44f28a1e97cbe7b.jpeg31F1332A-8BA6-46EB-A09B-4DFED0EBBEA6.jpeg.43b57c72910a3170d599c521c52706ac.jpeg6A7459E9-A996-4B5C-89EA-2B63336337B0.jpeg.7b354c14ef9a406af630d66e6c13c108.jpeg48A5CB07-D87B-4FB2-A050-F249294215A7.jpeg.ac14260caea0ce4124d1d61374c59b27.jpegBF1A4278-DC40-4C66-96CD-1188403E8DFA.jpeg.0a8dd31d5012e316d06be05757d7a630.jpeg82EBF066-9011-4B99-9AC2-A2C976E8E990.jpeg.2031bbdfb6ee670260fd13b5f38a952d.jpegEBC3E070-9FC7-4EAE-BA0A-F7C7F7DDBC33.jpeg.2c12167f13fd125f8a09f271a0d3f864.jpeg

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I could see it being from a fish but I think most fish in the Carboniferous had angular scales rather than the rounded variety. At least that is what I seems like whenever I see a pic of a fossil fish from that period.If you found it in the Coal though then it's more likely plant based. Perhaps some layer underneath a trees exterior bark where it was pithy and the tree fluids flowed?

-Dave

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If it's a fish, then it's definitely sarcopterygian. Looks vaguely megalichthyid but it might be rhizodontid or lungfish. The bigger elements might be parts of the back of the skull.

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First impression was scales but need more pics, with a scale.

 

Inclined to say "not a rock"

 

More input needed.

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