Triassic Tooth

[PFOOLEY]

More views (fig. 3) of Phytosaur teeth...

 

mateus_et_al_2014_first_phytosaur_algarve_portugal_jvp.pdf

 

 

[PFOOLEY]

I found this image regarding Phytosaur heterodonty... 

 

 

...in a Power Point called: Phylogenetic signals in phytosaur tooth enamel microstructure and implications for Newark Supergroup phytosaurs

 

by: HOFFMAN, Devin K.1, MILLER-CAMP, Jessica A.2, and HECKERT, Andrew B.1,

(1) Dept. of Geology, Appalachian State University, ASU Box 32067, Boone, NC 28608, hoffmandk@appstate.edu, (2) Dept. of Geoscience, Iowa State University, Iowa City, IA 52242

[Tidgy's Dad]

Keep 'em coming guys, most splendid midweek viewing.

[Cowboy Paleontologist]

The reason that I say it is not Phytosaur is because the same Dr. Hungerbuhler cited in the paper told me it wasn't.  I have a general understanding of what crocodillian teeth should look like, but not enough to say anything definitively on my own.

 

So if I am understanding everything correctly, I have a tooth.  It may be dinosaur or crocodillian, but we don't really have any way of telling? 

[Troodon]

 

10 hours ago, Cowboy Paleontologist said:

The reason that I say it is not Phytosaur is because the same Dr. Hungerbuhler cited in the paper told me it wasn't.  I have a general understanding of what crocodillian teeth should look like, but not enough to say anything definitively on my own.

 

So if I am understanding everything correctly, I have a tooth.  It may be dinosaur or crocodillian, but we don't really have any way of telling? 

Correct you've seen what is published not much to help you but at least you've eliminated some candidates.  In reading the dinosaur papers many indeterminate theropod teeth are found.  The round base, however, is more typical of crocodylomorphs than theropods but it does not exclude them at all and can be found in some anterior dentary positions.

[Cowboy Paleontologist]

So I guess my next question is, should I be content with having a cool, although unidentified, tooth, or should I continue to try to identify it?  I know that there are species that are described based solely on their teeth, but it seems like this is not a very good option in this time period because dinosaurs and crocodylomorphs were so similar.  Thoughts?

[Troodon]

First, I believe the days of identifying a taxon based on an isolated tooth is far behind us and is unlikely to occur.   In the end you have the two most important pieces of the puzzle, the tooth and an exact location of where its found.   You can continue your quest for an ID actively or be passive about, it your choice but it really feels like an uphill climb if Lucas could not ID it.   I would  at least try to contact a paleontologist at another museum and see what they have to offer but not sure who that would be.  Provide them with all the info you have on the tooth, pictures just are not enough. 

 

[Max-fossils]

26 minutes ago, Cowboy Paleontologist said:

So I guess my next question is, should I be content with having a cool, although unidentified, tooth, or should I continue to try to identify it?  I know that there are species that are described based solely on their teeth, but it seems like this is not a very good option in this time period because dinosaurs and crocodylomorphs were so similar.  Thoughts?

Well, your tooth is absolutely gorgeous, so I would definitely be content with it in any case! 

 

It happens very regularly that it is not possible to positively and precisely ID a loose tooth like this. What I suggest is that you keep it with this, until perhaps S Lucas comes with a good ID. I can tell you from personal experience that Frank here @Troodon is really one of the most experienced people here on this forum regarding dinosaur and reptilian fossils. So if he can't come easily to a good conclusion, it is a little more unlikely that other people will. I will still tag @LordTrilobite and @hxmendoza, as well as @Susan from PA (though she hasn't been online in a while; I doubt she will respond) in order for them to also give their thoughts, as I know that they are also quite helpful and knowledgeable when it comes to dinosaur fossils. Maybe they will be able to shed some new light on your tooth too. 

[LordTrilobite]

30 minutes ago, Max-fossils said:

@Troodon I will still tag @LordTrilobite and @hxmendoza, as well as @Susan from PA

Sorry, I have no experience with the Triassic. So I don't have anything useful to add.

[GeschWhat]

I feel your pain. I have been following your thread because study coprolites, many of which are from the Triassic in New Mexico. I find a lot of really interesting inclusions (tooth plates, and just plain weird things) in them, many of which remain unidentified. The thing about this forum is that your tooth is now available for world to see. I had a tooth that was posted here for quite some time. Before posting it, I had 3 different paleontologists look at it and was given 3 different ids (fish, lizard and avian). One day, someone here recognized it, and the mystery was finally solved.  It can be frustrating to have unidentified fossils, but it is also fun to have unique finds that others have not seen. Just my 2 cents - welcome to the forum! I look forward to seeing your future posts.

[Cowboy Paleontologist]

Thank you all for all of your help and input!  

I will continue to browse through potentially related information as I find it in hopes of coming up with something eventually.  I will also be going to Albuquerque within the next couple of weeks and am hoping to stop by the NM Museum of Natural History while I'm there to see if I can't learn anything else.

[Troodon]

Just now, Cowboy Paleontologist said:

Thank you all for all of your help and input!  

I will continue to browse through potentially related information as I find it in hopes of coming up with something eventually.  I will also be going to Albuquerque within the next couple of weeks and am hoping to stop by the NM Museum of Natural History while I'm there to see if I can't learn anything else.

Please let us know if you get closer to an ID so we can help others

[Cowboy Paleontologist]

1 minute ago, Troodon said:

Please let us know if you get closer to an ID so we can help others

Of course!

 

[Cowboy Paleontologist]

It has been a little while, but I did take the tooth to Dr. Lucas.  He said that it was definitely archosaur, but beyond that he could not tell.  Dinosaur teeth from that time period were not particularly distinct from other archosaurs, particularly rauisuchians, so an isolated tooth is hard to identify. 

[jdp]

Bit late to the party here, but what about something like Vancleavea?

[Cowboy Paleontologist]

I suppose that Vancleavea or something similar could be a potential candidate.  I have not been able to find any formal description of the teeth for Vancleavea, but it looks like a paper is in the process of being written which formally describes an articulated specimen from the Ghost Ranch area. 

Maybe someday we will have an answer  

[jdp]

Nesbitt and colleagues did a complete description of Vancleavea back in 09:

 

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1096-3642.2009.00530.x/abstract

 

May be paywalled. I might be able to snag a pdf later.

[Tidgy's Dad]

I downloaded it fine.  

Thanks for the link.