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Unidentified Fish(?) Jaw from Hell Creek Formation, ND


SamK

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Hi there, I'm new to the fossil forum, and was hoping I could get help in identifying this jaw.

It was found in Marmarth, North Dakota in the Hell Creek Formation. I don't have any more specifics on location besides that. I hope the pictures are detailed enough, but if not, I can post more. I am thinking it has to be some kind of fish, but I am not completely sure. Any direction or help would be wonderful! Thank you so much!

 

 

image.png.b4ebaabd83ab38e172aaecc20e021d89.png

 

image.png.75c881c84a1de3cd26d7bb503c40ffb9.png

 

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Welcome to the forum from Maryland! Does look like a fish jaw, but I’m not skilled at these formations. Maybe @Troodon could be able to help?

“...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin

Happy hunting,

Mason

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21 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

Does look like a fish jaw

Or I could be wrong:P

“...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin

Happy hunting,

Mason

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Nice jaw...I think it is a fish. Search for the amiid Melvius ...there are some good references on the Forum to compare with.

"I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"  ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) 

 

New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins    

 

point.thumb.jpg.e8c20b9cd1882c9813380ade830e1f32.jpg research.jpg.932a4c776c9696d3cf6133084c2d9a84.jpg  RPV.jpg.d17a6f3deca931bfdce34e2a5f29511d.jpg  SJB.jpg.f032e0b315b0e335acf103408a762803.jpg  butterfly.jpg.71c7cc456dfbbae76f15995f00b221ff.jpg  Htoad.jpg.3d40423ae4f226cfcc7e0aba3b331565.jpg  library.jpg.56c23fbd183a19af79384c4b8c431757.jpg  OIP.jpg.163d5efffd320f70f956e9a53f9cd7db.jpg

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Considering the biserial arrangement of the teeth and their diameter less than approx. 1mm , I think the fish hypothesis might be good. :)

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

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This one had me stumped, but I did look up a photo of a champsosaur jaw in Brinkman 2004, and I am with troodon... it looks very champsy.  It is a good find. 

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@jpc, you made me reconsider my answer :)...

 

...after looking at the pictures a bit more closely, I now see the double row of tooth sockets! I think this is a section of the jaw of a fish in the family Lepisosteidae...a gar!

 

Something like this...

 

alligator-gar-dentition.jpg

image from arwsome.com

...:o

 

Nice find, @SamK.

 

 

"I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"  ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) 

 

New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins    

 

point.thumb.jpg.e8c20b9cd1882c9813380ade830e1f32.jpg research.jpg.932a4c776c9696d3cf6133084c2d9a84.jpg  RPV.jpg.d17a6f3deca931bfdce34e2a5f29511d.jpg  SJB.jpg.f032e0b315b0e335acf103408a762803.jpg  butterfly.jpg.71c7cc456dfbbae76f15995f00b221ff.jpg  Htoad.jpg.3d40423ae4f226cfcc7e0aba3b331565.jpg  library.jpg.56c23fbd183a19af79384c4b8c431757.jpg  OIP.jpg.163d5efffd320f70f956e9a53f9cd7db.jpg

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The only figure I am finding of a fossil gar (Estes, 1964) jaw shows an internal (lingual) row of large tooth sockets and an external (labial) row of much smaller teeth.  I looked for a gar jaw in our collections and found no good ones.  I still don't think it is a gar.   The double rows on this fossil are too irregular to be gar.  Having said that, I do not know what the configuration of alveoli is for champsosaurs. 

I found this photo of a modern gar jaw on the interwebs.  

http://dfwurbanwildlife.com/2013/02/24/uncategorized/spotted-gar-remains/

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"I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"  ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) 

 

New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins    

 

point.thumb.jpg.e8c20b9cd1882c9813380ade830e1f32.jpg research.jpg.932a4c776c9696d3cf6133084c2d9a84.jpg  RPV.jpg.d17a6f3deca931bfdce34e2a5f29511d.jpg  SJB.jpg.f032e0b315b0e335acf103408a762803.jpg  butterfly.jpg.71c7cc456dfbbae76f15995f00b221ff.jpg  Htoad.jpg.3d40423ae4f226cfcc7e0aba3b331565.jpg  library.jpg.56c23fbd183a19af79384c4b8c431757.jpg  OIP.jpg.163d5efffd320f70f956e9a53f9cd7db.jpg

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4 hours ago, jpc said:

...fossil gar (Estes, 1964) jaw shows an internal (lingual) row of large tooth sockets and an external (labial) row of much smaller teeth...

Good note...the search continues.

"I am glad I shall never be young without wild country to be young in. Of what avail are forty freedoms without a blank spot on the map?"  ~Aldo Leopold (1887-1948) 

 

New Mexico Museum of Natural History Bulletins    

 

point.thumb.jpg.e8c20b9cd1882c9813380ade830e1f32.jpg research.jpg.932a4c776c9696d3cf6133084c2d9a84.jpg  RPV.jpg.d17a6f3deca931bfdce34e2a5f29511d.jpg  SJB.jpg.f032e0b315b0e335acf103408a762803.jpg  butterfly.jpg.71c7cc456dfbbae76f15995f00b221ff.jpg  Htoad.jpg.3d40423ae4f226cfcc7e0aba3b331565.jpg  library.jpg.56c23fbd183a19af79384c4b8c431757.jpg  OIP.jpg.163d5efffd320f70f956e9a53f9cd7db.jpg

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I know nothing about it, but it is a very cool find.

In support of the reptile vs fish I will say that @JarrodB posted a jaw fragment of a Tylosaurus last week with a similar teeth pattern, with regards to the 2nd set of teeth. Clearly they’re different creatures and have no similarities otherwise.

 

 

:popcorn:

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There are some interesting tooth replacements going on in that Tylosaur post.  Off center.  I wonder if the jaw in question is a Parasaniwa... the local Monitor Lizard.  

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Is there any chance to know if the incomplete jaw is upper or lower?

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

My Library

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I based my call on these images of Champs if you look at the very anterior tooth of the top jaw it looks similiar to the bases of the specimen in question.  The density of teeth is similiar as well as size.20171212_164002_20171212165332951.thumb.jpg.39539741bb3577fe2555789ffa9dcc28.jpg20171212_164019.thumb.jpg.a98c3919b6b621efe93678d69e895f95.jpg

 

Teeth and jaws are very similiar and even required a section in the Hell Creek guide on how to ID them.

Screenshot_20171212-164903.thumb.jpg.65fd8ac53d040448d2655b8d092dbac8.jpg

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That's why I was asking for.  :)

This document might be helpful, also, and is a really good.

 

 

" We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. "

Thomas Mann

My Library

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I think this is a Gar.  I happened upon one decomposing recently and collected the mandible.  I'll take some macro photos and post them shortly.

 

Darrow

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Looks like the unidentified fish jaw may be a fragment from the rear/proximal end of the right mandible.  For comparison, these are pictures of the same section of a modern Alligator Gar Atractosteus spatula, viewed from a similar angle.  (sorry about the poor lighting)

Darrow

3.JPG

4.JPG

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Nice gar jaw.  One thing I notice s that this gr has way more small teeth than the mystery jaw piece, and also where the modern teeth are missing, the crenelated tooth base is still there, whereas in the modern gar, the missing teeth have taken the crenelations with them. 

 

I am still thinking varanid... mosasaurs (close relatives) have crenelated bases even when there is no tooth.  

 

But that is a really nice gar jaw.    

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I am saying lower because it has hint of a palate.  Our modern varanid skull is out teaching kids how to be a monitor lizard, so I can't look at it here and now, but I hope to soon.  

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