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anomotodon?


Hipockets

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Here is another from the neuse river in NC. Eocene and cretaceous material found there. Scale is mm. How did I do on my guess? Thanks

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I agree it is probably Anomotodon toddi.

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

image.png.0c956e87cee523facebb6947cb34e842.png May 2016  MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160.png.b42a25e3438348310ba19ce6852f50c1.png May 2012 IPFOTM5.png.fb4f2a268e315c58c5980ed865b39e1f.png.1721b8912c45105152ac70b0ae8303c3.png.2b6263683ee32421d97e7fa481bd418a.pngAug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png.af5065d0585e85f4accd8b291bf0cc2e.png.72a83362710033c9bdc8510be7454b66.png.9171036128e7f95de57b6a0f03c491da.png Oct 2022

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20 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

Are Scapanorhyncus found there? Might be one with the cusps broken off.

@Al Dente, what do you think about a small cusp on the last picture? (assuming it is complete and not a part of a broken normal lateral cusp) I haven't seen anything like this on Scapanorhynchus, but it is typical for A. toddi. Although I am not very familiar with the local elasmo-fauna.

The Tooth Fairy

 

 

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id go with Scapanorhynchus as well.   The shoulders where additional cusplets may have been present originally looks sheared down or worn off which is a very common occurrence in similar worn/abraded lateral Scapanorhynchus teeth.  

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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Thanks all for the feedback. Scapanorhynchus is found there. All the scapanorhynchus I have from the Neuse River have striations. Not that all scapans. do. ( That will be another project ,sorting  what is and whats not ). The shoulder "bumps" dont appear to be broken off or worn down . I will posts better pics .later today.  Happy New Year! 

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More pics. Hope this helps.The last 3 pics are a second tooth similar to the one in question. Scale is mm. Thanks

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The root on your tooth has a lot of wear so I'm not so sure you would be able to see where cusps once were. He are a couple Scapanorhynchus from the same site as yours (I think). They both have a similar looking shoulder but still have the side cusps present. The first picture is very blurry but the second is a little clearer. I would think Anomotodon would have an enamel shoulder that extends more onto the root lobes than your tooth does.

 

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Looking at the new pics, I now agree this tooth is Scapanorhynchus. 

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

image.png.0c956e87cee523facebb6947cb34e842.png May 2016  MOTM.png.61350469b02f439fd4d5d77c2c69da85.png.a47e14d65deb3f8b242019b3a81d8160.png.b42a25e3438348310ba19ce6852f50c1.png May 2012 IPFOTM5.png.fb4f2a268e315c58c5980ed865b39e1f.png.1721b8912c45105152ac70b0ae8303c3.png.2b6263683ee32421d97e7fa481bd418a.pngAug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 VFOTM.png.f1b09c78bf88298b009b0da14ef44cf0.png.af5065d0585e85f4accd8b291bf0cc2e.png.72a83362710033c9bdc8510be7454b66.png.9171036128e7f95de57b6a0f03c491da.png Oct 2022

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11 hours ago, Hipockets said:

More pics. Hope this helps.The last 3 pics are a second tooth similar to the one in question. Scale is mm. Thanks

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This second tooth also illustrates my previous point.  Missing cusplets is a very common occurrence in abraded lag derived Scaporhynchus.  Add a little tumbling and polish to the tooth and it can become somewhat difficult to tell that there ever were cusps there in the first place.  In the last picture you can see the remnants of where the cusplets were broken off as a black area, however.  

 

Does anyone have any actual late Cretaceous Anomotodon from anywhere besides Morocco?   NC?   The one specimen from NC on elasmo has always troubled me.  And I wouldn't be surprised if its the reason the OP thought this tooth might be Anomotodon. 

 

 

 

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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10 hours ago, non-remanié said:

 

 

Does anyone have any actual late Cretaceous Anomotodon from anywhere besides Morocco?   NC?   The one specimen from NC on elasmo has always troubled me.  And I wouldn't be surprised if its the reason the OP thought this tooth might be Anomotodon. 

 

 

 

That tooth on elasmo bothered me too. I have a few Scapanorhynchus that have elongated wrinkled cusps that look very similar to that tooth. Jerry Case identified a small tooth from the Peedee of NC as Anomotodon cf. A. toddi. I was doubtful, thinking it was an odd tooth position from a different species but I have found a few that look very much like the one he identified. All of them are tiny. I’ll try to photograph them to get your opinion.

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Here is an image of the Anomotodon from the Case paper "A late Maastrictian selachian assemblage from the Peedee Formation of North Carolina, USA". The scale bar is in millimeters. I've added three images of two teeth from the same location as the Case tooth. I would be interested in hearing opinions on the identification of these teeth.

 

 

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Robb didn't list it in his DVPS article from the Black Creek Group. Is this the same taxon as Paranomotodon?

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Paranomotodon never entered my mind, I had forgotten it existed. My two teeth resemble it very much.

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Thanks, Al Dente!  I think Plax sent me the Case paper, but I had forgotten it had Anomotodon.   I recall now that the singular 2mm tooth he pictured wasn't totally convincing to me.  But I think your additional specimens from the same site make it much more clear, and are all likely the same.   Your specimens do look quite a bit like Paranomotodon juveniles.    In NJ, juvenile specimens are very rare, but adult specimens seem to be more common then NC.   But those are from the latest Campanian of NJ.  Its unclear if there are  any in the Maastrichtian, mostly due to a lack of fossiliferous sites.  But I do have 2 smooth crowned adult size NJ Anomotodon from  the KP boundary or just beyond it.   I guess these would fit the Anomotodon toddi description  nicely.  They are smooth crowned, but otherwise, very similar to Anomotodon plicatus from the Maastrichtian phosphates of Morocco.   The anterior teeth are much more narrow and  more high crowned than Paranomotodon.  The Texas specimens on elasmo could possibly fall within range of NJ Paranomotodon in my opinion, but they could also fit in with my KP boundary Anomotodon,  the abrasion doesn't help.    I still cant say whether your teeth seem more like Paranomotodon or Anomotodon, but maybe if someone finds an adult tooth from the same site, that could help.   I have many  Eocene Anomotodon and if anything, I do think your teeth resemble Anomotodon perhaps a little more than Paranomotodon.   So  it does seem that A. toddi may be legitimate.  A. toddi  is also pretty close to A. novus which becomes quite common later in the Paleogene on the Atlantic Coastal Plain as well.

 

I think since we both agree on the NC elasmo specimen, we can throw that out.    I agree that its not uncommon for the shoulders of Scapanorhynchus to be elongated/wrinkled like that.   And some tooth positions are smoother than others, and smoothness also seems to vary even on the same tooth position.  I have a large very oddly smooth Scapanorhynchus tooth from NJ that always bothered me.   Due to the elamso NC specimen I originally thought it might be A. toddi, but I didnt buy that it fit in a dentition with the other two Texas elasmo specimens.   But that's one or two strangely smooth Scapanorhynchus teeth out of many 1000s, and it otherwise fits Scapanorhyncvhus morphology.  I think its just slightly abnormal.  Since within the dentition, smoothness varies by position, I don't think its unreasonable that sometimes a tooth position that is usually more wrinkled just happens to be smooth.  
 

 

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---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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15 hours ago, non-remanié said:

I have a large very oddly smooth Scapanorhynchus tooth from NJ that always bothered me.

Scapanorhynchus drops out of the record here in NC in the middle of the Donoho Creek Fm and is absent from the Exogyra cancellata / Belemnitella americanum lag at the base of the Peedee. None in the Peedee of course. Since they're remotely? related perhaps your smooth Scapanorhyncus are trial adaptations in an evolutionary trend.

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5 hours ago, Plax said:

Scapanorhynchus drops out of the record here in NC in the middle of the Donoho Creek Fm and is absent from the Exogyra cancellata / Belemnitella americanum lag at the base of the Peedee. None in the Peedee of course. Since they're remotely? related perhaps your smooth Scapanorhyncus are trial adaptations in an evolutionary trend.

That sounds possible and is along my line of thinking.  

 

Ive attached a pic of the NC elasmo.com tooth in question.   It's also quite large for any Anomotodon from what ive seen.  My similar odd smooth specimen from NJ (no picture yet) is probably even a bit larger.  

 

The abnormal smooth Scapanorhynchus that I mention is from the NJ Wenonah so nothing strange there.   But the tooth that Al Dente and I mentioned is listed on elasmo.com as Anomotodon toddi and says Maastrichtian.   The Maastrichtian designation was really the only reason I ever thought that it might be something other than an odd Scapanorhynchus. Because Scapanorhynchus disappears from the record as you mention.  I don't know if there is any possible Scapanorhynchus "pollution" or not at the site this came from, but Al Dente among others over the years on the forum has brought up many incredibly odd cases of age pollution at multiple NC sites.  

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---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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17 minutes ago, non-remanié said:

That sounds possible and is along my line of thinking.  

 

Ive attached a pic of the NC elasmo.com tooth in question.   It's also quite large for any Anomotodon from what ive seen.  My similar odd smooth specimen from NJ (no picture yet) is probably even a bit larger.  

 

The abnormal smooth Scapanorhynchus that I mention is from the NJ Wenonah so nothing strange there.   But the tooth that Al Dente and I mentioned is listed on elasmo.com as Anomotodon toddi and says Maastrichtian.   The Maastrichtian designation was really the only reason I ever thought that it might be something other than an odd Scapanorhynchus. Because Scapanorhynchus disappears from the record as you mention.  I don't know if there is any possible Scapanorhynchus "pollution" or not at the site this came from, but Al Dente among others over the years on the forum has brought up many incredibly odd cases of age pollution at multiple NC sites.  

 

The elasmo tooth came from a site that has both Maastrictian and Campanian teeth (and Eocene). You can see the fauna if you click on the “faunas” tab and select “Black Creek”. A lot of Scapanorhynchus are found there.

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5 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

The elasmo tooth came from a site that has both Maastrictian and Campanian teeth (and Eocene). You can see the fauna if you click on the “faunas” tab and select “Black Creek”. A lot of Scapanorhynchus are found there.

 

Well then that's the last nail in the coffin for sure.   The Maastrichtian label on it was the only thing that really ever made me give it consideration as possibly not being Scapanorhynchus.  

 

 

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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BTW, does anyone have the Amomotodon toddi description from the below paper?  

 

CASE, G.R. & CAPPETTA, H. 1997. A new selachian fauna from the Late Maastrichtian of Texas (Upper Cretaceous/Navarro Group; Kemp Formation). Münchner Geowissenschaftliche Abhandlungen, (A), 34: 131-189, 10 fig., 15 pl.

 

 

---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen---

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1 hour ago, non-remanié said:

BTW, does anyone have the Amomotodon toddi description from the below paper?  

 

CASE, G.R. & CAPPETTA, H. 1997. A new selachian fauna from the Late Maastrichtian of Texas (Upper Cretaceous/Navarro Group; Kemp Formation). Münchner Geowissenschaftliche Abhandlungen, (A), 34: 131-189, 10 fig., 15 pl.

 

 

I think I have a xerox copy somewhere. I’ll dig it out tomorrow and photograph the Anomotodon part.

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18 hours ago, non-remanié said:

BTW, does anyone have the Amomotodon toddi description from the below paper?  

 

CASE, G.R. & CAPPETTA, H. 1997. A new selachian fauna from the Late Maastrichtian of Texas (Upper Cretaceous/Navarro Group; Kemp Formation). Münchner Geowissenschaftliche Abhandlungen, (A), 34: 131-189, 10 fig., 15 pl.

 

 

Hopefully this works. I’m using an iPad and have never attempted to upload photos using it. The first tooth is the holotype, the second the paratype.

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