Legal Fossil Hunting

[danthefossilman]

Don't see the logic? We are declaring proactively, we adhere to legal collecting standards because we are legitimate collectors.

 

How does an affirmative positive statement infer a negative? 

 

Why do most entities I belong to have affirmative declarations that reflect professional standards of agreement?

 

 

 

 

[JohnJ]

Unfortunately, declarative statements of "virtue" by clicking a button (or other means) amounts to fluff...something that in reality has little value.  Online profiles can be completely different from the real world.

[JohnJ]

The reputation that TFF has established in Paleontology clearly embraces legal collecting.  I think the instances of any content describing illegal collecting would be difficult find on this forum...and previous suggestions describe how to handle this.

 

[Fossildude19]

But what good does it really accomplish? Anyone can say they collected legally, and we have no way to verify that.

We have no way to verify they would even read a pledge or promise to collect legally and ethically.  

Our Forum Rules and Community Standards already mention we don't tolerate any posting of  " illegal acts or disregard for the law. "

 

Besides, we have people who don't read the Forum Rules and Community Standards, even though they must agree to them, before their registration is complete! 

Good luck getting them to read a missive about legal/ethical collecting.   

 

You stated:

"However, when people post information at reflects vertebrate fossils collected in potentially illegal locations, and provide information to "the online community" where the fossil location is, I think we have a "ethical" responsibility to "remind" members what the collecting laws and consequences are. "

 

I don't think it is the Fossil Forum's responsibility to remind people of this.   

Our stand on the issue is clear. It is the responsibility of the collector to make sure they are observing and following the laws and regulations of their country, or place where they are collecting. 

We don't need to broadcast it ad nauseum. 

 

I think it's fairly obvious from multiple posts here, and elsewhere, that we all try to follow the laws concerning collecting in our respective states, and countries.

I see mentions all of the time, of permission gained, permits bought, and questions asked of stewards of the land in question.

 

If you have specific concerns about specific posts, you need only report those posts to us, and give us the reasoning/proof behind your concerns.

It will then be reviewed by the staff.

 

[danthefossilman]

3 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

Unfortunately, declarative statements of "virtue" by clicking a button (or other means) amounts to fluff...something that in reality has little value.  Online profiles can be completely different from the real world.

So, it sounds like rather than attempting to do something positive and proactive, it would be better to do nothing and complain with rule and regs. change because of illegal or over collecting of fossil materials? 

 

After all NO one ever complains online about proposed changes to fossil collecting laws?

 

 

 

 

[JohnJ]

6 minutes ago, danthefossilman said:

So, it sounds like rather than attempting to do something positive and proactive, it would be better to do nothing and complain with rule and regs. change because of illegal or over collecting of fossil materials? 

 

After all NO one ever complains online about proposed changes to fossil collecting laws?

 

 

 

 

That's a false alternative, Dan, and an unfair appraisal of the efforts of this forum and individual members to improve relationships and laws dealing with fossil collecting.

 

A billboard stating "legal fossil collectors found here" has as much value as "quality auto repair"...it really boils down to the reputation.

[danthefossilman]

Just now, JohnJ said:

That's a false alternative, Dan, and an unfair appraisal of the efforts of this forum and individual members to improve relationships and laws dealing with fossil collecting.

 

Can you provide reference to the efforts the online community is doing to "proactively" address unethical or illegal fossil collecting and negative impacts to proposed law changes?

 

[Kane]

2 minutes ago, danthefossilman said:

So, it sounds like rather than attempting to do something positive and proactive, it would be better to do nothing and complain with rule and regs. change because of illegal or over collecting of fossil materials? 

 

After all NO one ever complains online about proposed changes to fossil collecting laws?

 

 

 

 

You may be missing something here. The information the forum provides, through our own posted rules and the information provided by our membership, is adequate to the task of not condoning illegal activity. 

 

No matter how much we may remind people of ethical and legal collecting, if some people are intent on flouting the rules, they are going to flout the rules. Simple exceptionalism.

 

Keep in mind that not every fossil collector is a member here. If collecting rules tighten due to the bad behaviour of some collectors who are not members here, a badge or a link to a pledge for our members will not change that eventuality. To say otherwise might be to court the fallacy of post hoc ergo propter hoc - in this case, claiming that because we did not make additional reference to legalities, collecting rules are changed. B does not necessarily follow A in this instance.

 

- Our rules discourage illegal activities

- Our members do not condone such activities

- Where there is an issue, we have mechanisms in place to report and deal with it

- Our members frequently reinforce the importance of legal collecting

 

I really don't see much more that we ought to do, honestly. It seems to my mind a solution in search of a problem.

[JohnJ]

Use the search engine on this forum and you will find what you're looking for.  There are plenty of examples.

[Fossildude19]

4 minutes ago, danthefossilman said:

 

Can you provide reference to the efforts the online community is doing to "proactively" address unethical or illegal fossil collecting and negative impacts to proposed law changes?

 

One might ask the same of you, Dan.  

 

Can you provide proof of a member post that alludes to illegal behavior?

Can you provide proof that a pledge or promise will cut down on the amount of over collecting and illegal collecting by not only our members but the thousands of anonymous users who visit every day??  Or that such a pledge would, in some way, change the collecting laws in our favor?

 

[danthefossilman]

4 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

One might ask the same of you, Dan.  

 

Can you provide proof of a member post that alludes to illegal behavior?

Can you provide proof that a pledge or promise will cut down on the amount of over collecting and illegal collecting by not only our members but the thousands of anonymous users who visit every day??  Or that such a pledge would, in some way, change the collecting laws in our favor?

 

Knew I was "opening a can of worms." Didn't think it would result in defensive posting. I find it interesting that "road blocks" seem to outweigh proactive solutions. 

[FossilDAWG]

During the comment period for the proposed BLM rules regarding the Paleontological Resources Act we (TFF members) engaged in extensive discussion of those rules and strongly encouraged members to submit comments,

 

When the EU was considering a law that would have had severe negative impacts on fossil collecting, we supported extensive discussion of the law, provided links to official sites for submitting comments, and many of us did submit comments.

 

I can think of a few former members who were banned for bragging about trespassing, or for advocating ignoring laws.  I can also think of posts where people were challenged for appearing to dig directly into the cliffs at Chesapeake Bay, or for collecting on private property.  In those cases it turned out the TFF member was collecting legally for a museum under a permit, they just had not mentioned that in their initial post.  Numerous threads over the years have bemoaned the loss of collecting sites due to the irresponsible behavior of a few collectors.

 

That being said, I'm not appreciating the tone of your posts, which seem to be approaching a lawyer taking a deposition.  It is not possible for us to police the activity of every one of the 25,000 registered members of the Fossil Forum.  We are a community of fossil enthusiasts who like to share knowledge and stories of our collecting adventures, not Big Brother.

 

Don

[Fossildude19]

Dan, 

You can post whatever reminders about legalities in your own posts. 

No one is stopping you from that. 

 

But I believe you are in a minority of members who feel (for whatever reason) that we need to see more of this. 

Not defensive posting, just facts.  

[JohnJ]

Beyond the examples cited above, it isn't within the mission or means of this forum to form political action committees or lobbying groups to address fossil laws worldwide. 

 

However, any that do form or exist likely have members here. 

[Gizmo]

Please look at my first post on the forum 8 years ago, this topic has been at the forefront of TFF since I've been a member and a Mod. Please explore this vast site to see the numerous times your issue has been addressed in the past.

 

 

[Ludwigia]

1 hour ago, danthefossilman said:

 

Why do most entities I belong to have affirmative declarations that reflect professional standards of agreement?

 

Just curious. What entities do you belong to?

[danthefossilman]

1 minute ago, Ludwigia said:

Just curious. What entities do you belong to?

All related to my previous occupations in marketing, advertising, technology and career in health care. 

[Fossildude19]

I think it is obvious that Dan feels differently from the Fossil Forum Staff on the need to have more legal admonishments. 

This thread is now locked, as further discussion is fruitless at this point.