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Bone--does the texture have a formal name?


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Hi Gang, So I meant to ask this quite awhile ago when I saw similar textures in our Florida Plio-Pleistocene osteoderms and periotics and ran across this larger chunk of bone again while rooting around in the garage this weekend and thought I'd throw it out for an answer.  

 

Does the lumpy irregular non-smooth texture on the top edge of this bone actually have a name? Is it normal or does it indicate there is some abnormality? I think I've seen similar textures but was curious. I dont know what kind of bone fragment it might be or what critter its from but being its another goofy fragment--if someone has an idea that would be cool but right now I'm just hung up on what the weird texture is...LOL. 

 

I know I'm crazy....Any insights are welcomed. 

1st shot of the texture

5a518e549b066_thumbnail(15).thumb.jpg.17f156184cab357954196819f262250e.jpg

Next 2 pics show a slightly diff angle of one side of the bone with the texture showing at the top. 

5a518e5750496_thumbnail(23).thumb.jpg.8a378d6424d2db0b7bebdd457168bf37.jpg

 

5a518e56973d7_thumbnail(22).thumb.jpg.4595004f5920e23d796492f2f14545a8.jpg

Here's another view of the other edge which doesnt look worn and looks osteoderm/patella like to me. 5a518e5540b1d_thumbnail(20).thumb.jpg.ce9b04ad4af959e7fbc463af9b0d25e0.jpg

And a view of broken cross section at the bottom of the piece.5a518e55d9194_thumbnail(21).thumb.jpg.43ab061588f60e3b610961702d95a244.jpgThanks! 

 

Thanks!

Regards, Chris 

 

 

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Just a guess, but I think it is a pathology. Could be a poorly healed break or results of an infection.

Have no idea what the texture is called.

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fossilized6s

I agree with pathology of some sort (arthritis, infection, etc.). 

 

Something cool to think about is that this could have been a septic infection that could have led to this creatures death. Kinda neat. 

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I wonder if it is not some form of bryozoan or something that grew over it after the critter had died, but before it had fossilized and then maybe the growth fossilized with it.

 

However, that last shot definitely looks like pathology. I am not a pathologist, but just from what I do know of anatomy, infection and cellular structure, something definitely happened to this creature's bone while it was still living and its body made an attempt to heal. If it were a normal break that healed I believe you would see relatively normal osteoclast formation for the most part, but you don't see that here. In my armature opinion it appears that the bone got infected. There seems to be evidence of an attempt of the bone to sequester an infection. That is noted by the loss of bone within the small cavity near your thumb and also in the next to last picture you see numerous pits or holes of various sizes. Another indication of sequestration is fibrosis of the bone, the thickening of the bone around the infection site, which results in a lack of blood flow to the bone which keeps it healthy. Fibrosis is an increase in the density of any tissue which eventually results in the loss of the health and life of the tissue. Sequestering is also the body's attempt to wall off the infection so that it does not spread to other areas. If you look around the cavity in the last pic there is a loss of the normal and regular porosity of the bone. That is a form of fibrosis or thickening of the bone. That is just my amateur opinion though. 

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Bone texture is split into only two main types :

1) Dense Bone also called Cortical Bone  or Compact Bone. Without cavities and is the outside layer of bones which encloses the trabecular bone in its middle. It is made of secondary osteons or haversian systems.

2) Traecular Bone also called Sponge bone or cancellous Bone. Lots of cavities and found in the medullary cavity . lots of bony trabeculae joined together along stress lines. 

The matrix, of course, also has two types : 

1) primary bone tissue, or woven bone, this is immature bone and also pathological tissue in adults.

2) secondary bone tissue, or lamellar bone, adult tissue with a rigid structure in parallel lamellae. 

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I definitely don't think it was arthritis. I believe arthritis results from an increase in the density of the bone, usually near joints and on the surface of the bone or just under it. It would not result in the formation of a cavity of this nature where there is a loss of bone and a thickening of the interior of the bone in the absence of infection.

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Osteoarthritis, which is presumably the type of arthritis we are discussing here (and there are many others) is due to the cartilage eroding away and then bones directly moving against each other with no cushion. 

I agree, KIm, this doesn't look like arthritis. 

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delptympwillist.jpg

quggderosteollptttrymjjpwillist.jpg

Maybe a very early stage of pachyostosis?Maybe a periosteal sarcoma or benign hypoplasia?Osteochondrosis?

 

 

 

 

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fossilized6s

I respectfully disagree that this can not be a case of arthritis. Arthritis can cause infection leading to 'septic arthritis' resulting in loss of bone, fused bones, etc. This looks very similar. 

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/rare-dinosaur-fossil-had-bad-case-arthritis-180959995/

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5 minutes ago, fossilized6s said:

Arthritis can cause infection leading to 'septic arthritis' resulting in loss of bone, fused bones, etc. This looks very similar. 

Good point, but septic arthritis usually occurs only at the actual joint itself, this seems more widespread, or are we only looking at the top end?

Sorry if I'm being dense bone. 

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fossilized6s
14 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

Good point, but septic arthritis usually occurs only at the actual joint itself, this seems more widespread, or are we only looking at the top end?

Sorry if I'm being dense bone. 

It be nice to know what this even is. Possible partial vertebra? @Harry Pristis may have more knowledge on bone pathologies. 

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3 minutes ago, fossilized6s said:

It be nice to know what this even is. Possible partial vertebra? @Harry Pristis may have more knowledge on bone pathologies. 

Agreed, he is certainly better versed than I. :)

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I did qualify my response with this statement. "It would not result in the formation of a cavity of this nature where there is a loss of bone and a thickening of the interior of the bone in the absence of infection." 

I believe in septic arthritis the arthritis is not pre-existing to my knowledge. Rather the arthritis occurs as a result of pathogenic infection of the joint space. So, in general the pathogen is introduced and then the arthritis develops secondary to the infection. Usually you would have instances where the joint is compromised or loses integrity by injury of some kind and then it is much more prone to develop an infection.  Hip and knee replacements and prosthetic implants would be some of the more common preexisting conditions that would predispose someone to the development of septic arthritis. In dinosaurs it was most likely an injury from another animal or an accident.

The term septic is related to the term sepsis, which is a bacterial infection of the blood stream and results in a systemic infection that is frequently fatal if not caught and treated. So, in septic arthritis that would mean an infection of the joint enters the bloodstream, therefore the term septic.

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Thanks all for giving me some things to research and consider. It just also occurred to me this morning that Bob Sinibaldi of our Tampa Bay fossil club wrote a book that I actually have that has some really cool pics along the lines you all have presented. I forgot I had it (doing this alot lately) and feel quite dumb (he's a really great guy and an awesome reference) and so I need to look more at this later and your comments/info. Check these pics from his book.  Some have some real similarities! 

5a52578716fa3_thumbnail(16).thumb.jpg.ec64818f1e70ae8646ab7507e9bfa377.jpg5a525787f2599_thumbnail(17).thumb.jpg.1e6fe8d9ba8c85f7de976e890ef59543.jpg5a525788d51b2_thumbnail(18).thumb.jpg.6f26fc13dbe0a15e628669e63ab8a580.jpg5a525789c0a35_thumbnail(19).thumb.jpg.a04fe3fec4e182b2f21259816f059c4f.jpg

 Thanks all for your help--my curiosity grows!. 

Regards, Chris

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Harry Pristis

 

I'm curious to see what y'all are talking about . . . Chris' original images don't open for me.  Anyone else having that problem?

 

 

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fossilized6s
1 hour ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

I'm curious to see what y'all are talking about . . . Chris' original images don't open for me.  Anyone else having that problem?

 

 

They're still there for me. Seems as though this may be an ongoing problem......

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2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

 

I'm curious to see what y'all are talking about . . . Chris' original images don't open for me.  Anyone else having that problem?

 

 

Harry thanks for looking. Yep that is curious...I dont even see them now and I posted em...Let me see if uploading here adds them again..I would be interested in what you think about this odd texture...I havent had the chance to go thru Bob's chapters in his book yet...may take me awhile..

1st shot of the lumpy texture seen at the very top of the photo. 

5a52b04be29fb_thumbnail(15).thumb.jpg.07aa0df96ffaac22dbdb6ea7f43d0d1a.jpg

Next 2 pics show a slightly diff angle of one side of the bone with the texture showing at the top. 

5a52b04fe2565_thumbnail(23).thumb.jpg.fd3868af9af97ec42ead47b7e7afd2ec.jpg5a52b04eec2f3_thumbnail(22).thumb.jpg.38407ede766901c7de76132e0d911213.jpg

Here's another view of the other edge which doesnt look worn and looks osteoderm/patella like to me. 

5a52b04d265ab_thumbnail(20).thumb.jpg.9e6097761ac04506773d9c0bca9f1de1.jpg

And a view of broken cross section looking at what I'll call the bottom of the piece.

5a52b04deb72b_thumbnail(21).thumb.jpg.e2e607d33ab5029ff7542b64fe4fe2a9.jpg

Regards, Chris 

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Harry Pristis
1 hour ago, Plantguy said:

Harry thanks for looking. Yep that is curious...I dont even see them now and I posted em...Let me see if uploading here adds them again..I would be interested in what you think about this odd texture...I havent had the chance to go thru Bob's chapters in his book yet...may take me awhile..

1st shot of the lumpy texture seen at the very top of the photo. 

 

Next 2 pics show a slightly diff angle of one side of the bone with the texture showing at the top. 

 

Here's another view of the other edge which doesnt look worn and looks osteoderm/patella like to me. 

 

And a view of broken cross section looking at what I'll call the bottom of the piece.

5a52b04deb72b_thumbnail(21).thumb.jpg.e2e607d33ab5029ff7542b64fe4fe2a9.jpg

Regards, Chris 

Patella-like may be intuitive, Chris.  This doesn't look like a bone infection to me.  I think this may be another sesamoid bone, possibly even a patella with a modest amount of adventitious bone.  The edge appears to be sheared away.  Just my guess.

 

Here is a description taken from Palaeo-Electronica (March 2010) which divides mammal bones into two types:
 1. endochondral bones (which ossify directly from an embryonic cartilaginous precursor, often constrained by joints and articular surfaces). These would include all limb bones, for example, and,
 2. intermembranous bones which are less constrained. Some intermembranous bones, such as the kneecap (patella), are almost always ossified in adult mammals (with minor exceptions).
   Other intermembranous bones, known as sesamoids, occur only in areas where a tendon passes over a joint, and ossify in irregular and unpredictable patterns. Humans have only one sesamoid, the pisiform in the carpus.
 Sooo... How can a collector identify a sesamoid or patella when he's sifting gravel or checking another collector's discard pile? Sesamoids (particularly pisiforms) and patellae have articular facets, often two facets, on what may be an otherwise undistinguished lump of bone.  How can you identify them to species? ...You'll have to take 'em to the local museum where they may be able to help you.
 _________________________
Comparative Variability of
Intermembranous and Endochondral Bones in Pleistocene Mammals
Kristina R. Raymond and Donald R. Prothero
Palaeo-Electronica (March 2010)
 "The topic of intermembranous and endochondral bone growth, size and variability is one that is not commonly touched upon, except briefly in passing, in paleontological literature. Generally, intermembranous bones are measured and discussed as only a slightly relevant topic in regards to larger studies of species or interspecific variation and sexual size dimorphism.
 "Intermembranous bones form directly from the connective tissue late in embryological development and after birth through intramembranous ossification. Some intermembranous bones, such as the kneecap (patella), are almost always ossified in adult mammals (with minor exceptions).
 “Other intermembranous bones, known as sesamoids, occur only in areas where a tendon passes over a joint, and ossify in irregular and unpredictable patterns (Vickaryous and Olson 2007).
 "The number and shape of intermembranous bones vary greatly within the Mammalia, and are highly taxon-dependent. Humans have the patella and only one sesamoid (the pisiform) in the carpus.
 “In many mammals, such bones include the patella and large sesamoids in the manus and pes. In ungulates, on the other hand, the only [relatively] large intermembranous element is the patella. The sesamoids in the manus or pes are small nodular ossifications in the digital flexor tendons, both at the metapodial-phalangeal joint and the distal interphalangeal joint; suids have as many as 13 sesamoids in the manus alone."

 

sesamoid_largeA.JPG

sesamoid_largeB.JPG

sesamoid_largeC.JPG

sesamoid_largeD.JPG

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I did have to take a class on bone development and formation, but I don't use that part of my training much. I also had to take histology, which is the study of tissues and their disease states, although usually we were looking at them at the cellular level, microscopically and not macro. That part of my degree I do use some, but mostly with regard to blood cells, not bone. I work in a field of pathology, but it is not specific to bone. My specialty is with the immune system. I do understand that there are different types of bones with varying degrees of density and significant variations in structure. I still believe part of the issue was an infection. I cannot rule out the presence of a tumor, but something caused the loss of bone in the last of the original pictures. Some disease process was in play at one time in this creatures life prior to death. See the red arrows. The arrow on the left is pointing to what appears to be fibrosis around the peripheral edge of the cavity where necrosis and bone loss occurred. The arrow on the right is just pointing to part of the cavity.

image.png.b70a1ab82db43459450ba3003f431369.png

Then there is this area with irregular pitting of different sizes and lack of uniformity in shape. All the other pits, which I assume to be osteonic canals to the right are at least round and generally consistent in size and shape and they are somewhat equidistant from one another. These would be the normal holes where vessels ran through them. Note how the pits, mostly to the left are of different sizes and irregular in shape, not consistent with an osteonic canal. They also appear to have loss of the coloring. That is definitely not healthy bone.  

image.png.ed7ae9d09bb677211254a790fb9af314.png

I could be wrong, but I don't believe you tend to get this particular picture of pitting and development of cavities with tumors. You could have a tumor develop, obstruct the blood supply and then have necrosis and loss of tissue which would generally result in phagocytosis, but I am unsure of how the surrounding tissue would look after necrosis. Normally the body will develop a granuloma or cyst to wall off the unhealthy part, but it looks different than fibrosis. It looks like a cyst. Metastatic tumors behave differently though and evade being enclosed in a cyst.

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23 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

Patella-like may be intuitive, Chris.  This doesn't look like a bone infection to me.  I think this may be another sesamoid bone, possibly even a patella with a modest amount of adventitious bone.  The edge appears to be sheared away.  Just my guess.

 

Here is a description taken from Palaeo-Electronica (March 2010) which divides mammal bones into two types:
 1. endochondral bones (which ossify directly from an embryonic cartilaginous precursor, often constrained by joints and articular surfaces). These would include all limb bones, for example, and,
 2. intermembranous bones which are less constrained. Some intermembranous bones, such as the kneecap (patella), are almost always ossified in adult mammals (with minor exceptions).
   Other intermembranous bones, known as sesamoids, occur only in areas where a tendon passes over a joint, and ossify in irregular and unpredictable patterns. Humans have only one sesamoid, the pisiform in the carpus.
 Sooo... How can a collector identify a sesamoid or patella when he's sifting gravel or checking another collector's discard pile? Sesamoids (particularly pisiforms) and patellae have articular facets, often two facets, on what may be an otherwise undistinguished lump of bone.  How can you identify them to species? ...You'll have to take 'em to the local museum where they may be able to help you.
 _________________________
Comparative Variability of
Intermembranous and Endochondral Bones in Pleistocene Mammals
Kristina R. Raymond and Donald R. Prothero
Palaeo-Electronica (March 2010)
 "The topic of intermembranous and endochondral bone growth, size and variability is one that is not commonly touched upon, except briefly in passing, in paleontological literature. Generally, intermembranous bones are measured and discussed as only a slightly relevant topic in regards to larger studies of species or interspecific variation and sexual size dimorphism.
 "Intermembranous bones form directly from the connective tissue late in embryological development and after birth through intramembranous ossification. Some intermembranous bones, such as the kneecap (patella), are almost always ossified in adult mammals (with minor exceptions).
 “Other intermembranous bones, known as sesamoids, occur only in areas where a tendon passes over a joint, and ossify in irregular and unpredictable patterns (Vickaryous and Olson 2007).
 "The number and shape of intermembranous bones vary greatly within the Mammalia, and are highly taxon-dependent. Humans have the patella and only one sesamoid (the pisiform) in the carpus.
 “In many mammals, such bones include the patella and large sesamoids in the manus and pes. In ungulates, on the other hand, the only [relatively] large intermembranous element is the patella. The sesamoids in the manus or pes are small nodular ossifications in the digital flexor tendons, both at the metapodial-phalangeal joint and the distal interphalangeal joint; suids have as many as 13 sesamoids in the manus alone."

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Harry, appreciate the insight and info. Maybe I'll take it with me to the next club fossil shows (got a couple coming up in the next few months)...Dr. Hulbert usually shows up in either Tampa or the Lee County show and we'll see if he can offer an opinion. 

 

Regards, Chris 

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21 hours ago, KimTexan said:

I did have to take a class on bone development and formation, but I don't use that part of my training much. I also had to take histology, which is the study of tissues and their disease states, although usually we were looking at them at the cellular level, microscopically and not macro. That part of my degree I do use some, but mostly with regard to blood cells, not bone. I work in a field of pathology, but it is not specific to bone. My specialty is with the immune system. I do understand that there are different types of bones with varying degrees of density and significant variations in structure. I still believe part of the issue was an infection. I cannot rule out the presence of a tumor, but something caused the loss of bone in the last of the original pictures. Some disease process was in play at one time in this creatures life prior to death. See the red arrows. The arrow on the left is pointing to what appears to be fibrosis around the peripheral edge of the cavity where necrosis and bone loss occurred. The arrow on the right is just pointing to part of the cavity.

image.png.b70a1ab82db43459450ba3003f431369.png

Then there is this area with irregular pitting of different sizes and lack of uniformity in shape. All the other pits, which I assume to be osteonic canals to the right are at least round and generally consistent in size and shape and they are somewhat equidistant from one another. These would be the normal holes where vessels ran through them. Note how the pits, mostly to the left are of different sizes and irregular in shape, not consistent with an osteonic canal. They also appear to have loss of the coloring. That is definitely not healthy bone.  

image.png.ed7ae9d09bb677211254a790fb9af314.png

I could be wrong, but I don't believe you tend to get this particular picture of pitting and development of cavities with tumors. You could have a tumor develop, obstruct the blood supply and then have necrosis and loss of tissue which would generally result in phagocytosis, but I am unsure of how the surrounding tissue would look after necrosis. Normally the body will develop a granuloma or cyst to wall off the unhealthy part, but it looks different than fibrosis. It looks like a cyst. Metastatic tumors behave differently though and evade being enclosed in a cyst.

Appreciate the feedback. There are a number of different areas/types of pitting/cavities that intrigue me. As I just posted on Harry's comments. Maybe I'll take it with me to the next club fossil shows (got a couple coming up in the next few months)...Dr. Hulbert usually shows up in either Tampa or the Lee County show and we'll see if he can offer an opinion and I'll update it here. 

 

Thanks for looking! 

Regards, Chris 

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I am wondering if avascular necrosis is a possibility....

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45 minutes ago, doushantuo said:

I am wondering if avascular necrosis is a possibility....

What would you propose the cause to be of the avascular necrosis? Tumor, infection, injury or vascular disease could all result in loss of the blood flow/supply or avascular necrosis. Clearly there was a loss of the blood flow to some areas. 

Some of the areas appear to have a rerouting of the vasculature as indicated by some of the hairpin curvature of what appears to be vaculature. The pics aren’t sharp in those areas so it’s hard to tell, but that is something that does occurs in an infection scenario, but I’m not sure if other things cause it too. 

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