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Rhincodon ?


Hipockets

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This is from a site in eastern NC where everything found is Eocene, Castle Hayne Formation. It looks like Rhincodon, which is Oligocene. Could it be a transition tooth, or is this something entirely different? I dont see any signs of worn down side cusps but the root itself appears to be worn down or fragmented. Scale is mm.  Thanks

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Interesting. The tooth is laterally compressed like Rhincodon. The root appears to be broken, so it could have a had a bulbous root. Rhincodon is known from the Miocene and Pliocene of N.C. ( Rhincodon cf. typus) and the Oligocene of S.C. I have never heard of nor seen one from the Oligocene Belgrade or River Bend Formations. 

 

There is a Paleorhincodon from the Eocene Nanjemoy Formation of Virginia. It is a cusped tooth, and is really gnarly looking. I have not heard of nor seen one from N.C.  Is there possibly Miocene or Pliocene layers at this site? Lots of Castle Hayne sites have Miocene / Pliocene overburden. The Onslow Quarry is one example, and even at Castle Hayne it is run into from time to time.

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

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looks like one to me, maybe a Museum could be useful in confirmation.

“...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin

Happy hunting,

Mason

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14 hours ago, sixgill pete said:

Interesting. The tooth is laterally compressed like Rhincodon. The root appears to be broken, so it could have a had a bulbous root. Rhincodon is known from the Miocene and Pliocene of N.C. ( Rhincodon cf. typus) and the Oligocene of S.C. I have never heard of nor seen one from the Oligocene Belgrade or River Bend Formations. 

 

There is a Paleorhincodon from the Eocene Nanjemoy Formation of Virginia. It is a cusped tooth, and is really gnarly looking. I have not heard of nor seen one from N.C.  Is there possibly Miocene or Pliocene layers at this site? Lots of Castle Hayne sites have Miocene / Pliocene overburden. The Onslow Quarry is one example, and even at Castle Hayne it is run into from time to time.

 

Your tooth looks like a Rhincodon to me, but not an Eocene specimen.  As Don says above, Eocene Paleorhincodon have cusplets.  You would see some evidence of broken cusplets in your specimen if it was Eocene.  Below are three Miocene Rhincodon (1.5mm to 3.5mm) from Lee Creek, NC and an Eocene Palaeorhincodon daouii (multiple views) from Virginia.  I also have P. dartevellei from the Eocene of Virginia.  They also have cusplets which are smaller and straighter.  I have Eocene Palaeorhincodons from sites in the United States, Europe and North Africa and they all have cusplets.  If your tooth is truly Eocene then it is most likely not a Rhincodon or Palaeorhincodon but something else.

 

Miocene:

 

5a60a435c9c40_Rhincodoncftypus1_5mm.jpg.3b56c3a609e6208ef749c38a11ccdfef.jpg

5a60a48743493_Rhincodoncftypus3_5mm2.jpg.bfc7a6e400ad2e9fbc222e9d15dafea1.jpg5a60a489ee39e_Rhincodoncftypus3_5mm3.jpg.a34694dd144a9d46873ac8138856faa7.jpg

 

Eocene:

 

5a60a5fa2c7d5_Dad8-14-08PalaeorhincodonDaouii1.JPG.d58cdc94ff8a79c2a3c7bd2fbd98b983.JPG5a60a5fbb67b6_Dad8-14-08PalaeorhincodonDaouii2.JPG.72d72fe53bdda577ee2770a42302bc34.JPG5a60a5fd5c161_Dad8-14-08PalaeorhincodonDaouii3.JPG.4aaeb782cfdf409ceb6ac44e7b7d44f1.JPG5a60a5fec8bbe_Dad8-14-08PalaeorhincodonDaouii4.JPG.7d81e609c179453463939188b998c9a5.JPG

 

 

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Mark-

I was searching through my collection and found a very similar Castle Hayne tooth. I’ll try to photograph it this weekend. I’ve identified mine as Eostegostoma but mine is a little different than actual Eostegostoma. Mine has offset side cusps in the same position where yours is missing enamel.

 

Did you get any snow? We got around 8 inches.

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6 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Mark-

I was searching through my collection and found a very similar Castle Hayne tooth. I’ll try to photograph it this weekend. I’ve identified mine as Eostegostoma but mine is a little different than actual Eostegostoma. Mine has offset side cusps in the same position where yours is missing enamel.

 

Eric

 

I haven't seen any Eostegostoma in the Eocene of Virginia.  I have specimens from the Paleocene (Danian and Thanetian) of Morocco like the specimen below from Noubhani and Cappetta 1997.  Are Eostegostoma reported from the Eocene of NC?  Please do post your specimen.

 

5a6113a4ae62c_eostegostomasp.thumb.jpg.f36f611706df0d0163fb52efb897611f.jpg

 

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Here's the tooth I was referencing. It is from the upper part of the Castle Hayne Formation so maybe early late Eocene. I had it labeled as Palaeorhincodon?, Eostegostoma? I don't have my sources with me at the moment but I remember seeing a publication where it looked more like Eostegostoma than Palaeorhincodon. My tooth has a bit of root damage and is slightly less than 4 millimeters long. My tooth has a more curved and elongated crown than Mark's tooth but it could be a positional difference.

 

 

eos1.small.jpg

eos2.small.jpg

eos3.small.jpg

eos4.small.jpg

eos5.small.jpg

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Noubhani and Cappetta 1997. 

2 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Here's the tooth I was referencing. It is from the upper part of the Castle Hayne Formation so maybe early late Eocene. I had it labeled as Palaeorhincodon?, Eostegostoma? I don't have my sources with me at the moment but I remember seeing a publication where it looked more like Eostegostoma than Palaeorhincodon. My tooth has a bit of root damage and is slightly less than 4 millimeters long. My tooth has a more curved and elongated crown than Mark's tooth but it could be a positional difference.

 

 

eos1.small.jpg

eos2.small.jpg

eos3.small.jpg

eos4.small.jpg

eos5.small.jpg

 

 

 

Eric

 

The two Eocene Palaeorhincodon species that I find in Virginia are P. daouii and P. dartevellei.  See the below from  Noubhani and Cappetta 1997.  See my above post for Eostegostoma sp.  From what I see in your pictures I would lean toward Eostegostoma for your specimen but I couldn't rule out P. dartevellei.

 

P. daouii

 

5a620d41025d8_Pdaouii.thumb.jpg.24e0d3a819102808fe63b1b80a2a7272.jpg

 

 

P. dartevellei

 

 

5a620d452bad9_Pdartevellei.thumb.jpg.127d2edfcfefbc8d8ee25e6508a934f2.jpg

 

 

Marco Sr.

"Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day."

My family fossil website     Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros     My Extant Shark Jaw Collection

image.png.9a941d70fb26446297dbc9dae7bae7ed.png image.png.41c8380882dac648c6131b5bc1377249.png

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Thanks Eric and Marco,   when I paste them together and do a side by side comparison, I want to believe it is the same with the cusps missing with the root that is gone. I guess for now it will be eostegostoma ?

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59 minutes ago, Hipockets said:

I guess for now it will be eostegostoma ?

With a large question mark after the name.

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On 1/17/2018 at 4:07 PM, sixgill pete said:

Interesting. The tooth is laterally compressed like Rhincodon. The root appears to be broken, so it could have a had a bulbous root. Rhincodon is known from the Miocene and Pliocene of N.C. ( Rhincodon cf. typus) and the Oligocene of S.C. I have never heard of nor seen one from the Oligocene Belgrade or River Bend Formations. 

 

There is a Paleorhincodon from the Eocene Nanjemoy Formation of Virginia. It is a cusped tooth, and is really gnarly looking. I have not heard of nor seen one from N.C.  Is there possibly Miocene or Pliocene layers at this site? Lots of Castle Hayne sites have Miocene / Pliocene overburden. The Onslow Quarry is one example, and even at Castle Hayne it is run into from time to time.

 

Hi Don,

 

I think this tooth could be Rhincodon.  It resembles teeth I've seen from the Chandler Bridge Formation (Late Oligocene) of South Carolina.  Like this one, the root and crown of the Chandler Bridge teeth are not as bulbous as those seen from Lee Creek and they seem to break in about the same way as the tooth in question, roots being more fragile than crowns -  perhaps more so with this form.

 

Jess

 

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10 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

Hi Don,

 

I think this tooth could be Rhincodon.  It resembles teeth I've seen from the Chandler Bridge Formation (Late Oligocene) of South Carolina.  Like this one, the root and crown of the Chandler Bridge teeth are not as bulbous as those seen from Lee Creek and they seem to break in about the same way as the tooth in question, roots being more fragile than crowns -  perhaps more so with this form.

 

Jess

 

Jes, looking at Eric's and Mark's teeth I am not 100% convinced they are the same species. I think Eric's tooth could possibly be eostegostoma but I think Mark's is more than likely rhincodon. Either one is an exceptional find for the eocene of North Carolina. Just my opinion. 

Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt
behind the trailer, my desert
Them red clay piles are heaven on earth
I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt

Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers

 

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