Anomotodon Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 I have recently purchased several interesting dinosaur specimens. They haven't arrived yet, but I have the pictures. Any comments on the IDs I have would be very appreciated. 1. Tenontosaurus caudal vertebra with bite marks. These bite marks actually look like bite marks, but I am not sure. Maybe they are from something big, like Acrocanthosaurus, that is know from Cloverly fm? Is it actually an ornithopod vertebra? The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 2. Croc or dinosaur vertebra from Kem Kem? The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 3. 3 small theropod teeth from Kem Kem. I think the left one is a juvenile Carcharodontosaurus tooth, the right one is a partially rooted Carcharodontosaurus posterior, but what about the middle one? I am not sure, but it doesn't look like a Carch, could it be a Neovenatorid/Megaraptoran or even a weird Ceratosaur? Length of the biggest one is 22.5 mm, is ID possible without serration counts? The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 The right and left dinosaur teeth both appear to be Carchardontosaurus. The one on the right looks like a partially rooted juvenile, not the left one. Not really sure on the middle one though. If I had to guess I would say Carch on that one as well. The vertebra appears to have predation marks on it. Because it comes from the Cloverly Formation, its possible it comes from Acrocanthosaurus because it was one of the largest predators of it's time. Looks similar to the hadrosaur vertebra I've seen but I don't know enough about bones to really comment about your two vertebrae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Your three teeth do indeed look like Carch. The posterior one on the right is especially nice. On the Kem Kem vert if you can take straight in photos of both ends and one side would help. Obtuse photos are very difficult to read. Difficult to say much with your first vert. I've included a photo of a vert string from my collection of a Tenontosaurus. It does not compare well with yours. The sides of your vert is much flatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 minute ago, Runner64 said: The right and left dinosaur teeth both appear to be Carchardontosaurus. The one on the right looks like a partially rooted juvenile, not the left one. Not really sure on the middle one though. If I had to guess I would say Carch on that one as well. The vertebra appears to have predation marks on it. Because it comes from the Cloverly Formation, its possible it comes from Acrocanthosaurus because it was one of the largest predators of it's time. Looks similar to the hadrosaur vertebra I've seen but I don't know enough about bones to really comment about your two vertebrae. Thank you! I am not sure, but the middle one looks too slender for Carcharodontosaurus. I will post the serration counts here once these teeth arrive. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, Troodon said: Your three teeth do indeed look like Carch. The posterior one on the right is especially nice. On the Kem Kem vert if you can take straight in photos of both ends and one side would help. Obtuse photos are very difficult to read. Difficult to say much with your first vert. I've included a photo of a vert string from my collection of a Tenontosaurus. It does not compare well with yours. The sides of your vert is much flatter. Thank you! I will post more pictures once I get the specimens. Maybe the first vertebra is actually a cervical Tenontosaurus vert? I think it compares with the Tenontosaurus from Foster, 1990 and Mymoorapelta cervical verts from Kirkland & Carpenter, 1994 (it is fairly large, so maybe Sauropelta and Tenontosaurus are the best options). The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 29 minutes ago, Anomotodon said: Thank you! I am not sure, but the middle one looks too slender for Carcharodontosaurus. I will post the serration counts here once these teeth arrive. I see what you're talking about but maybe once you get the tooth and are able to see it in person you will notice it is much more robust. Would wait to call it anything until you hold it in your hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 Carch teeth finally arrived. Here is the middle tooth - gray one. Middle distal serration density is about 3.6/mm, below are also pictures of 2 other definitely juvenile Carcharodontosaurid teeth, their serration density is between 2.8-3/mm. For my other adult Carch tooth it is about 2/mm. Unfortunately, can't take better pictures to analyze denticle shape, but they look more rounded than in other Carch teeth. 3.6/mm is definitely more than in 4 other Carch teeth in my collection, however, I understand that we don't know the normal range for Carcharodontosaurid juveniles, so I think Theropoda indet. is the most accurate ID. Although this tooth is definitely my favourite now because of the coloration The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 That's one awesome tooth! Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said: That's one awesome tooth! Thanks! The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I have found with Tyrannosaurid teeth that serration density changes with size. Smaller teeth have a larger number and they decrease with the size of the tooth. My sampling size was around 50 teeth so reasonable. Not sure if that is the same for Carch teeth but I can check a number of teeth at a dealer friend of mine in the Tucson show. My larger Carch teeth are around 1.5/mm. Not a lot of information is available and if there are multiple species we do not know if the morphology of their teeth is different. On the surface your tooth appears to be a Carcharodontosaurid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I did a quick check some of the teeth I have. Most fit the profile of 2.5 to 3/mm with the larger teeth having less density. The smallest in this group was 38 mm and the largest 148 mm. My 11 mm tooth was 4/mm . Again it confirmed that the density changes with the size of the tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Thank you Troodon! Yes, if the range is actually up to 4/mm it seems that this tooth is actually Carch... Although hope that it is actually something more interesting is not lost until new discoveries from Kem Kem we are waiting for a long time Although I am still not sure about serration shape, need a better camera to see it. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I visited the dealer I spoke about and looked at a number of his Carch teeth that were in the size range of yours and all were between 3.5 /4 mm. It supports the theory that juvenile teeth are much more dense and as the animal grew larger the density decreased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 @Anomotodon Nice teeth. On your posterior Carch do the denticals only go halfway down the mesial edge? I bought, from I think the same seller, a rooted ‘raptor’ tooth. The consensus is that it’s a probable posterior Carch and the serrations only go halfway down the crown. John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 45 minutes ago, JohnBrewer said: @Anomotodon Nice teeth. On your posterior Carch do the denticals only go halfway down the mesial edge? I bought, from I think the same seller, a rooted ‘raptor’ tooth. The consensus is that it’s a probable posterior Carch and the serrations only go halfway down the crown. Unfortunately, mesial side is worn and it is hard to see where there were serrations. Would be interesting to look at your tooth! I am not sure, but I think it is not supposed to happen for Carch teeth. On all 3 of my small Carch teeth mesial serrations end only 1-2-3 mm above the root margin. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Here’s the thread @Anomotodon plenty of images! John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 That's a nice one! I think my tooth has coarser distal serrations, so it's probably more posterior. Can't say anything about mesial serrations though. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 Here are more pictures of my Portuguese theropod teeth. Any help with ID would be very appreciated. Pictures from the seller can be found here. Lourinha fm, Portugal, Late Jurassic Tooth 1. I am thinking about Marshosaurus-like megalosaur or Ceratosaurus (thanks to @Troodon for suggestion). Serrations are very poorly preserved, though as you can see on picture 3 basal distal density is around 3-4 per mm (distance between dots on the paper is 5 mm). Also tooth looks strongly recurved. Tooth 2. Thinking about Megalosaur too because mesial carina definitely ends halfway down the crown (as in Megalosaurs) and serrations on both sides are very fine, however it is very thick compared to the previous one. Although it is hard to take a picture of the distal carina because it is very close to matrix. I don't want to extract the tooth since it is small (12 mm) and looks much better on matrix. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Beautiful teeth from a rare location. With trying to get better up close photographs I have found using a camera on phone and placing a loupe in front of the camera to work rather well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Nice pair of teeth. Its going to be very difficult to try to assign these teeth to a specific taxon. Can you provide a crown base width and length on your first tooth, possibly we can eliminate some. Any serrations on the mesial edge and can you determine how far down the carina extends toward the base? Can you do a density count on both edges of the second tooth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 Highlighted and cropped the area of distal serrations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 And the mesial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted March 2, 2018 Author Share Posted March 2, 2018 Thank you, @Haravex! These pictures definitely make it easier to see serrations. Unfortunately, I forgot my camera in Ukraine and my phone camera is not very good, so now I am often experiencing problems with picture quality 3 hours ago, Troodon said: Nice pair of teeth. Its going to be very difficult to try to assign these teeth to a specific taxon. Can you provide a crown base width and length on your first tooth, possibly we can eliminate some. Any serrations on the mesial edge and can you determine how far down the carina extends toward the base? Can you do a density count on both edges of the second tooth? Measurements for the first tooth: 22 mm and 9 mm. Unfortunately, mesial carina is completely broken on the lower 2/3 of the crown, in the upper part it is very worn. For the second tooth I have done some manipulations with Haravex photos, and here it is: (short line is approx. 1 mm) This is a very approximate approximation, but it is obvious that mesial serrations are very fine and distal are around 4/mm. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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