Shellseeker Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Was hunting yesterday in the Peace River. Good friends, sunshine, LOTS of small shark teeth, a couple of nice finds and a couple of unknowns. My BEST Meg of the day was small and broken: A very complete and large (2.5 inches across) Puffer Fish Mouthplate: A JAW with 2 teeth, I think it is raccoon but would love confirmation... and then this fossil (2.75 x 1.0 inches) for identification. This bone is complete! I thought I knew what it was before looking at the end in this last photo... Now I will look for TFF and Florida experts... Interesting fossils with good friends on a beautiful day.... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocene_Mason Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Nice finds! Sorry I can’t help any. That meg has deep serrations for a juvenile, most I’ve seen have finer ones. Wonder why. “...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin Happy hunting, Mason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Raccoon is a pretty good guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 hours ago, WhodamanHD said: Nice finds! Sorry I can’t help any. That meg has deep serrations for a juvenile, most I’ve seen have finer ones. Wonder why. Not all "small" megs are from juvenile animals. Even "big 'uns" had small posterior teeth. This looks like a posterior tooth to me and the pronounced cusplet leads me to believe it's one of the pre-meg species. Can't be sure of which one though as that is usually tied to age of stratigraphy and this was found in a lag deposit. @sixgill pete may offer more on it. Sorry Jack. I know you are looking for ID on the other 2 items but I wanted to dispel the myth that small tooth size equals small, not fully developed animal. 1 Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocene_Mason Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 26 minutes ago, SailingAlongToo said: Not all "small" megs are from juvenile animals. Even "big 'uns" had small posterior teeth. This looks like a posterior tooth to me and the pronounced cusplet leads me to believe it's one of the pre-meg species. Can't be sure of which one though as that is usually tied to age of stratigraphy and this was found in a lag deposit. @sixgill pete may offer more on it. Sorry Jack. I know you are looking for ID on the other 2 items but I wanted to dispel the myth that small tooth size equals small, not fully developed animal. I had not considered it being a predecessor to the meg, the cusps were the reason I thought it was a juvenile. That makes more sense. “...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin Happy hunting, Mason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 25, 2018 Author Share Posted January 25, 2018 2 hours ago, jpc said: Raccoon is a pretty good guess. Thanks, These seemed similar to some individual teeth that have been identified as raccoon on TFF.. Raccoon is not one of my common finds. 2 hours ago, WhodamanHD said: Nice finds! Sorry I can’t help any. That meg has deep serrations for a juvenile, most I’ve seen have finer ones. Wonder why. No verified ancestors of Megs have ever been found in the Peace River. If you search TFF for Mark Renz, he wrote about regressive genes causing cusps in juvenile megalodons. I also found this site: http://galactic-stone.com/fossil-dugong-rib-mineralization-rings-like-tiger-eye/ Quote This is a fossil dugong veterbra process (Metaxytherium Floridanum) that was recovered from the Peace River in the Bone Valley formation of Florida (Miocene Period, approx. 7-14 million years ago). This piece measures approx. 3 inches by 2 inches. This specimen is well mineralized and is very solid. What I did not understand is that I found broken fragments of dugong vertebrae that looked like this, Those "wings" are the vertebrae processes, but those wings are fused!!! So , are these like a whale epiphysis? They are free standing in baby/juvenile dugongs, and fuse at some sub_adult age. @Harry Pristis most certainly knows what is going on here. 1 hour ago, SailingAlongToo said: Not all "small" megs are from juvenile animals. Even "big 'uns" had small posterior teeth. This looks like a posterior tooth to me and the pronounced cusplet leads me to believe it's one of the pre-meg species. Can't be sure of which one though as that is usually tied to age of stratigraphy and this was found in a lag deposit. @sixgill pete may offer more on it. Sorry Jack. I know you are looking for ID on the other 2 items but I wanted to dispel the myth that small tooth size equals small, not fully developed animal. No Problem on adding any info or question in any of my threads. Knowledge is the goal... The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coled18 Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Maybe a worn calcaneus for the last one? I can definitely see it being a vertebral process as well though. CD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 I think the tooth is a juvenile megalodon lateral tooth. The bone appears to be a vertebral process. The vertebra is missing the growth plates (epiphyses). 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 17 hours ago, WhodamanHD said: Nice finds! Sorry I can’t help any. That meg has deep serrations for a juvenile, most I’ve seen have finer ones. Wonder why. 15 hours ago, SailingAlongToo said: Not all "small" megs are from juvenile animals. Even "big 'uns" had small posterior teeth. This looks like a posterior tooth to me and the pronounced cusplet leads me to believe it's one of the pre-meg species. Can't be sure of which one though as that is usually tied to age of stratigraphy and this was found in a lag deposit. @sixgill pete may offer more on it. Sorry Jack. I know you are looking for ID on the other 2 items but I wanted to dispel the myth that small tooth size equals small, not fully developed animal. Those are some pretty gnarly serrations for a meg or even a chubutensis. While I am not fully familiar with the geology of the formations of the Peace River, I believe it is old enough that chubutensis could be found there. The tooth, by looking at the picture appears to be about 1 inch wide. This would make it a smallerish shark, I have seen posteriors 3 inches wide. Possibly a juvenile but not a new born or neonatal at least in my opinion. I have megs from Lee Creek that are less than 1 centimeter wide. 2 Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 Compare with this Peace River tooth which lacks the atavistic cusplets. This tooth is 27 mm (1.06 inches) on its longest side: http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I love the puffer fish mouth plate! Lovely finds! Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plantguy Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Interesting collection of finds Jack. Like the shark tooth.... Regards, Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaholic Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Jack, That bone is a process from a dugong vert. Even the texture should be a clue. It is very very solid like the ribs and verts we find all over the river, Yes? "A man who asks is a fool for five minutes. A man who never asks is a fool for life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 1/25/2018 at 2:33 PM, Harry Pristis said: Compare with this Peace River tooth which lacks the atavistic cusplets. This tooth is 27 mm (1.06 inches) on its longest side: Just getting back to this thread.. I am trying to determine if I am missing the implications of fatter gnarly proportional serrations on a Meg. Some times I find small Megs this size with very fine serrations so twice as many serrations fit in the same length. I have found many small megs with these fatter serrations and also many with finer serrations. What, if anything, should I make of that difference? @sixgill pete@SailingAlongToo The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 On 1/31/2018 at 5:51 PM, megaholic said: Jack, That bone is a process from a dugong vert. Even the texture should be a clue. It is very very solid like the ribs and verts we find all over the river, Yes? Agree. This is a dugong Vert process and looks much like the processes that I have seen that are firmly connected to the Vert.. My question was : How is this single process disconnected? The obvious answer is that the processes must be disconnected at birth and at sometime later, fuse to the rest of the vertebrae.. I find that thought eye_opening. I have not found any write_up on how the process fuses. The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 28 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: Just getting back to this thread.. I am trying to determine if I am missing the implications of fatter gnarly proportional serrations on a Meg. Some times I find small Megs this size with very fine serrations so twice as many serrations fit in the same length. I have found many small megs with these fatter serrations and also many with finer serrations. What, if anything, should I make of that difference? @sixgill pete@SailingAlongToo @MarcoSr any thoughts on his question? I would hazard a guess that serration size (# per given distance) could change during the aging progression of the animal. Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 17 hours ago, SailingAlongToo said: @MarcoSr any thoughts on his question? I would hazard a guess that serration size (# per given distance) could change during the aging progression of the animal. I worked with a group of imaging, statistical and computer algorithm experts who were looking at serrations in the O. obliquus to O. megalodon lineage. They used very high resolution images of teeth and ran computer algorithms on the images which captured a good number of measurements on each tooth including serration measurements such as serrations per inch, average width of each serration, average height of each serration, serration shape etc. and general tooth measurements like tooth slant height, tooth vertical height, crown width, crown height, root measurements etc. The serrations per inch were normalized using other tooth measurements to try to normalize tooth size differences. Both the normalized serrations per inch and non normalized serrations per inch were plotted for a good number of teeth and looked at statistically. Site location found for each tooth and site age were also used in different plottings to see those affects. Bottom line from the data I saw is that serrations per inch vary a lot with teeth of the same species roughly the same size and with teeth of different sizes. Sample sizes were too small to make any really firm other conclusion. Hopefully with much larger sample sizes from many sites of different ages worldwide data will show statistically useful groupings of measurements taken. Marco Sr. 2 "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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