Ken kem Id help part 3

[Haravex]

Also is it just me or does this remind anyone of a mantellisaurus?

[Troodon]

50 minutes ago, Haravex said:

The teeth of majungasaurus seem rather small this is 47mm in length (or 1.85" for those across the pond) and there where sauropods but the kem kem is really bizarre so could just be an ablesauirde grew to such size

Yes but the morphology is very similar.  The size of the Maastrichtian  Abelsaurid from Morocco Chenanisaurus barbaricus has pretty large teeth with similar  serrations.

[Haravex]

Ok thank you troodon any thoughts on the vertebrae?

[Troodon]

I checked a known Croc vertebra from my collection that has some processes and the centrum has some similar features.  Proportions about the same.

Same crenulations that you see here are the most striking.   So that is one possibility.  

[Haravex]

Thanks I'm disappointed it's croc but guess these things happen again thanks troodon.

[LordTrilobite]

Still, it would be logical if there are some Iguanodontids present in Kem Kem. So it's still kinda weird there seems to be so little herbivore material.

[Haravex]

Well given that the kem kem beds where made up of fast flowing rivers maybe they just stayed clear of that area which is a possibility? I know for a fact for years they did not know about the 5th group ornathiscians Pachycephalosauria because so little of the remains had been found this could be the case in years to come with the kem kem beds

[Troodon]

Well I thought that way once.  I've come around to appreciate its not your typical eco-system that one associates with from other geographic locations where there were large herds of herbivores.  The conditions in the Kem Kem were likely unfavorable for the establishment of terrestrial areas of vegetation but very beneficial for aquatic life as indicated by the large number of fishes.   This aquatic life served as the principle food chain for the top predators like Spinosaurids and Carchs, proven by bone analysis and published.  With all of the digging that occurs in the Kem Kem, more than any other place,  you would think one piece of evidence would surface, a tooth, a bone to support herbivores other than Sauropods but nothing.  

 

 

[LordTrilobite]

Vegetation could be the key somehow. The weird thing is that along with the giant aquatic as well as terrestrial predators there are also small bodied predators like young spinos and dromaeosaurs. Though with the recent discovery of that aquatic dromaeosaur, who knows, maybe the dromaeosaurs in Kem Kem were aquatic too. We know little to nothing about them right now.

[Troodon]

Wow had forgotten all about Halszkaraptor but it sure makes sense when you look at the BIG picture in that environment.   The only real vegetation were trees/palms that supported the Sauropods.  Going to be very interesting when paleontologists can get their arms around this, hopefully I'm around when that happens.

[Haravex]

Ok picked this piece up thinking yes this looks like a spinosauridae quadrate however looking at it now I wonder as comparing it again others including @LordTrilobite it seems to be missing the quadrate foramen and suggestions as to why this?

[Haravex]

[LordTrilobite]

Sorry, definitely not a Spinosaurid quadrate.

 

 

I think this is an ischium of a very large croc. So Elosuchus would be a good candidate, as it seems to have gotten quite large indeed. But I'm not sure if other crocs in the area got as large as that one.

[Troodon]

Looks right

 

[Haravex]

Ok thanks for the help wish I could stop picking up crocodile pieces now, and i'm going to assume this one is also croc ilium? In which case I'm changing business models and selling fake mosasaur jaws 

 

(also sorry for the messy floor)

[LordTrilobite]

Hard to tell. Is that a joint I see? I think it looks like a large croc right articular. I got a similar one that's a little more stubby but otherwise fairly similar. I'm quite confident it's an articular but I'm not completely sure about croc.

[Haravex]

articular as in the knee? if so it must have been one massive crocodile. Also it's only partial of whatever bone it is very fragile (so much so I have to be careful not to use too much consolidate at one time) and weighs about 600g and is roughly 6 1/2 inches by 4 by 4.

[Troodon]

Articular

 

Spinosaurid articulars for example..

A–B, Baryonyx walkeri (NHM R.9951); and C, Irritator challengeri (SMNS 58022) in A, C, medial; and B, dorsal views. 

 

 

[Haravex]

I'm cleaning this piece now and will take pictures when it is done just to get better perspective on it and confirm it actually is an Articular maybe even if someone can help me work out where the rept, gfo, mgd, igd and igr are i can take exact measurements for this.

[LordTrilobite]

I checked again to be sure. This is absolutely an articular. It's fairly complete, but the front is missing. The broken part on the bottom on the long edge is I think where the angular or prearticular would attach. I think part of the surangular is also included. That big dark gap I think is the suture between the articular and surangular.

 

Here's an edited image of your photo that shows a bit of what you're looking at. So this is a right articular from a large reptile. In this photo we're looking at it from roughly a mediodorsal angle. This piece is quite similar, but not the same as my croc articular I mentioned earlier. My specimen preserves a little more of the side and bottom. Mine is a little smaller and the posterior part is more triangle shaped, while yours is a little more rectangle shaped in this picture (The large smooth surface bottom right). Yours ends in a wider attachment point for the muscles while mine ends in more of a blunt point. Other than that they are very similar. My specimen also preserves the tell tale pits we see on crocodile skulls. So mine is definitely from a croc. And I think there's a large chance yours is from a croc as well, only a really large one. I don't have photos of my specimen right now though. So yeah, definitely a right articular, likely croc. And it probably includes part of the surangular.

 

 

And just in case I'm wrong here are some more reference images of some relevant groups.

 

Abelisaurid Majungasaurus.

 

Carcharodontosaurid Acrocanthosaurus left jaw medial view.

 

 

Laganosuchus. Much more slender, but gives a nice comparison.

[Flx]

Interesting fossils. 

 

Regarding your discussion about the low number of herbivores in the Kem Kem:
I spent a day in the Everglades National Park, Florida earlier this year. I saw tons of carnivores (alligators, birds), even more fish but no herbivores (expect for a small turtle). Probably this is how the Kem Kem looked like 100M years ago.

 

[Haravex]

here are the additional photographs, some areas still have matrix between then as is far too fragile to fully remove and has been very much consolidated.

[Haravex]

[Haravex]

[Malone]

On 4/17/2018 at 9:00 AM, Haravex said:

@Tidgy's DadI feel you might know something about the trilobite

Is this a trilobite?