Ken kem Id help part 3

[Troodon]

Have not seen any Spinosaurid jaws from the kem kem with articulars they seem to break at that point.

From Ibrahim 

 

Most complete skull in private hands with sketch,  not very helpful

 

Found this online

[Haravex]

This is some really helpful information troodon thank you, I think this is one I should keep and show to the museum maybe even email paul serrano? As if non of these pieces have been found (although part of one seems to be in that composite skull but no real pictures or scientific data) it could help with jaw analysis and bite force calculation correct? That's of course if it is from a spinosauridae and not a crocodile like LT has suggested again I would be disappointed if it turned out to be croc but would rather that than misidentifying a fossil.

[LordTrilobite]

Okay yeah, this is a croc articular for sure. I took some new photos and also compared it to my modern Nile crocodile juvenile skull. It's very similar to both, even more so to the Nile croc. The fossil articular has the typical skull pits on the side that we only really see on crocs. It's also from the Kem Kem beds, and as I said before, the main difference is that the posterior extension is a little less rectangular. Though the Nile crocodile does seem to have a more rectangular shape here like your specimen does. The most important difference I think, is that your specimen is huge.

 

Dorsal view.

 

Right lateral view.

 

Posterolateral view.

 

Ventral view.

 

Medial view.

 

I'm also not sure how accurate that 3d model of that Spinosaurus jaw is. There are some errors on the dentary and possibly also on the prearticular.

[Haravex]

I mean comparing this articulate to the one posted by Sereno et al puts it in the same size category.

[LordTrilobite]

Yeah it's big. There's no evidence that Sacrosuchus was present in the Kem Kem beds. If I remember correctly Sarcosuchus was like 12 meters or so. But Elosuchus is it's relative and also got really big. I got some skull scraps that belonged to an Elosuchus that had a skull of well over a meter. The partial quadrate I have is larger than that of an adult Spinosaurus. It wouldn't surprise me if Elosuchus got over 10 meters.

[Haravex]

I did know that there is no confirmed cases of sarchosuchus being present in the kem kem beds despite older tv shows depicting that it was present but very interesting information you have presented me with LT thank you I only have one more piece that I need help with identification and then the rest I will take pictures just to show for all your help and such

[LordTrilobite]

I gotta say, that nice croc ischium you posted helped me as well. I have a similar piece that's not as complete. I had a hunch it was an ischium of some animal. But looking at your specimen now, it's identical. Just less complete (I only have the forked part that articulates with the ilium and pubis, not the large flat process). So I guess it's croc as well.

So thanks for posting that.

[Haravex]

A little bit back I asked about the vertebrae and was pointed that no evidence of ornathiscians existed however found this journal article, UCRC I FS4 - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260610205_Dinosaur_Footprints_and_Other_Ichnofauna_from_the_Cretaceous_Kem_Kem_Beds_of_Morocco 

 

Also I just realized my phone auto corrected the title and I missed it... ken kem beds is now the official name then 

[Troodon]

Interesting paper, thanks, not aware of footprints in Kem Kem, something else to look for and collect.  The single large ornithopod footprint cited as most likely made by a Iguanodon was very cool and says they might be around.  Still only one definitive ichnofossil that has yet to be backed up by definitive fossils.   I still need to see more real evidence to be convinced but will not rule them out.   Why I struggle is that herbivores typically significantly outnumber Theropods, their bones preserve a lot better and have more teeth to shed yet there is no fossil evidence in a very well collected region.  Like Spock in Star Trek  says, not logical  .  This is an semi-aquatic environment so maybe things are very different, time with new discoveries will provide answers.  I would love to have Iggy material from the Kem Kem.

[LordTrilobite]

I think I've seen that paper before. But yeah, as Troodon says, it would be nice to have some bones to go with it.

[Haravex]

The thing I think we might need to start looking at more is the lack of ornithopod teeth from an area like the isle of weight, and when comparing this to say baryonyx teeth, another thing that might be worth considering also is the potential for these bone fragments to get mixed up with spinosauirdae bones given the density, I feel the later is a possibility but given that the only place I have excavated is in the kem kem beds and have never actually handled any bones other than theropod, croc, turtle, fish ect.. so there is always a possibility of this being over looked?

[LordTrilobite]

Since there is the footprint that does indeed seem to be ornithopod, sure it's possible that some bones are being overlooked. I think it's generally a good idea to look out for weird looking bones.

 

But yeah, the lack of ornithopod teeth is also a good point.

[Haravex]

Ok last one is a femur measuring 8 inches long need help more in detmerning if it is from a juvenile or adult.

[Troodon]

The topic I just posted about the Brazilian Spinosaur shows the food web in the blog, for that semi-aquatic enviorment.  It lacks herbivores!  Also there have yet to be any described.  It appears to be a replica of the Kem Kem. 

(Numbers refer to a photo in blog)

Dinner for 1, Spinosaurinae included: 2, small to medium sized terrestrial theropods; 3, pterosaurs; 4, semi-aquatic crocodyliforms; 5, terrestrial omnivorous crocodyliforms; 6, semi-aquatic chelonians; 7, large fishes; 8, small fishes; 9, plants; 10, macroinvertebrates; 11, plankton

[Haravex]

So I'm here wondering why nobody had replied to the images and then realized I had not uploaded them ....I was born blonde by the way 

 

If you notice in the first image the foramen and in the third image the 4th trochanter 

[LordTrilobite]

Well that does seem to be a distal part of a theropod femur. Probably not Spinosaurus as the bone doesn't seem as dense.

[Haravex]

The reason I post it (its a left femur too forgot to mention) is it's small at 8 inches minus the head which would have taken it maybe up to 1 ft or 12 inches that is rather small for and certainly too small for any known spinosauridae unless of course it was a juvenile which is basically what I need the help with would it be possible to tell from the cross section where the bone has broken? it's also slightly less thick the walls at roughly the mid section which you can't see because of the repair, only where the break had occurred post mortem in this femur.

[LordTrilobite]

Do you mean if there's a way how far down the break is of the actual length? One can make estimates, but there's no way to know for sure unless you find the other end that's missing.

[Troodon]

Spinosaurids have a much straighter femur.  Opposing opinion the curvature is more Croc like and the hollow bone does not look like a theropod.

[Haravex]

So it's not hollow enough? I think I will leave picking these bones up next time and just stick to teeth, as it always turns out to be crocodile.

[Haravex]

this is what I used for reference when buying, there is no internet in the kem kem region only when I get back to the hostel which is every couple of days or so depending on the weather.

[Haravex]

forgot to add some really nice pictures of pieces i could identify 

[Haravex]

more will follow and better quality images too that was taken at night time sorry 

[LordTrilobite]

Those are some very nice articulated fish vertebrae. I can't compare right now. But I have a fish braincase with two articulated vertebrae. I'll compare when I can. That might yield some more information as to what type of fish it is.

[Haravex]

Ok I feel rather dumb asking this but this is a rooted crocodile tooth correct?