Troodon Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Isolated theropod Teeth from the Kem Kem Basin continue to be a mystery. Plan on documenting all the different morphologies I have in my collection to see the variation that exists. Currently we cannot identify any one to a specific species or genus possibly family. I can provide discussion and aid in identification at some point. Just a note, different morphologies do not necessarily mean different species. There are lots of tooth variations in the dentition of a theropod, why its so difficult to nail down an ID even in the best of circumstances. Morph Type 1 Anterior Tooth (possibly Carcharodontosaurid) Distal margin is almost straight Mesial margin strongly recurved Mesial carina extends 3/4 crown height Denticles are oriented towards the tip Serration Density: Distal - 2/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial - 1.7/mm (More dense toward the base) Morph Type 2 (possible Carcharodontosaurid) Anterior Tooth Distal margin is slightly concave Mesial margin strongly recurved Mesial Carina extends to the cervex Denticles are oriented toward the tip Interdental sulci present Serration Density: Distal: 2/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial: 1.9/mm (More dense toward the base) Morph Type 3 (possibly Carcharodontosaurid) Dentary? Mesial Mesial carina extends 3/4 crown height Denticles parallel to the base and rounded at tip Serration Density: Distal: 2.2/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial: 2.4/mm (More dense toward the base) Additional Example Morph Type 4 (Possible Dromaeosaurid like) Lateral Tooth Tooth is recurved Mesial Carina extends to 3/4 crown height with a lingual twist Denticles parallel to the base Serration Density: Distal: 3.6/mm Mesial: 4.6/mm Additional Example Serration Density: Distal 3/mm, Mesial 5/mm Morph Type 4A (Dromaeosaurid like) Tooth is slightly recurved Mesial Carina extends to base with a lingual twist Denticles parallel to the base Serration Density: Distal: 3.6/mm Mesial: No Serrations Additonal Example Serration Density: Distal 3.3/mm, Mesial: No Serrations 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Morph Type 5 (Dromaeosaurid like ?) Lateral Tooth Tooth is strongly recurved, compressed Mesial Carina extends to 1/2 crown height, centrally located Serration Density: Distal: 4/mm Mesial: 5/mm Morph Type 5 (May not be Dinosaurian) Distal margin very straight Mesial margin slightly recurved Denticles are very small but rectangular under a microscope Serration Density: Distal: 5/mm Mesial: 5/mm Additional Example Morph Type 6 Lateral tooth Tooth slightly recurved Transverse undulations present Mesial carina extends to the cervix Denticles are very fine, Serration Density: Distal: 2.8/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial: 2.6/mm (More dense toward the base) Additional Example 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Morph Type 7 (Abelisaurid indet.) Lateral Tooth Very Compressed Distal margin perpendicular to the base Mesial margin strongly recurved Distal denticle orientation is toward the tip Carinae extend to the base Serration Density: Distal: 2.5/mm Mesial: 2.6/mm Additional Example Morph Type 7A (Abelisaurid indet.) Typical Morph Type 7 but positional (Pre-Maxillary) Denticles on both edges orient toward the tip Morph Type 7B (Abelisaurid indet.) Lateral Tooth Very Large compared to Morph type 7 & 7A (50 mm) (Adult?) Distal margin perpendicular to the base Denticle orientation is toward the tip Carinae extend to the base Serration Density: Distal: 2.2/mm Mesial: 2.2/mm Morph Type 8 Position unclear Very Compressed, Bowed Distal margin perpendicular to the base Mesial margin strongly recurved Mesial carina extends to 3/4 of crown height Interdental sulci present (Blood grooves) Serration Density: Distal: 3.5/mm Mesial: 3.5/mm Additional Example 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 12, 2018 Author Share Posted February 12, 2018 Morph Type 9 (Spinosaurid indet.) Vertical ridges on both sides of the crown (one side strongly developed, weak on other) Carinae present around midline of the tooth Morph Type 9A (Spinosaurid indet.) Vertical ridges on only one side of the crown Carinae present around midline of the tooth Morph Type 9B (Spinosaurid indet.) Vertical ridges absent on both sides of the crown Carinae present around midline of the tooth Morph Type 10 (Carcharodontosaurid indet.) Anterior tooth Distal margin is slightly concave Mesial margin recurved Mesial Carina extends to the base Denticles are oriented toward the tip Interdental sulci present (Blood Roots) Serration Density: Distal: 2/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial: 1.6/mm (More dense toward the base) Morph Type 10A (Carcharodontosaurid indet.) Anterior lateral tooth Distal margin is slightly recurved Mesial margin recurved Mesial Carina extends to the base Interdental sulci present (Blood Roots) Serration Density: Distal: 2/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial: 1.6/mm (More dense toward the base) Morph Type 10B (Carcharodontosaurid indet.) Distal lateral tooth Distal margin is fairly straight Mesial margin recurved Mesial Carina extends to the base Interdental sulci present (Blood Roots) Serration Density: Distal: 1.8/mm (More dense toward the base) Mesial: 1.5/mm (More dense toward the base) Additional Example of a Infant Tooth Crown Height: 12 mm Serration Density Distal: 3.6 mm Mesial: 3.5 mm 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 An awesome post troodon I have around 25 small teeth that i have either classified as abelsauride or dromaeosaurid I can take close up pictures of all of them if you like including the 3 carchar teeth as one is very small might help with serration count and id for juveniles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Nice thread @Troodon to help in ID. I have a few teeth that this may really help in the correct ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Great job, @Troodon, for putting it all together!! I actually thought of another idea for this type of teeth. At first I thought that they are from Aegisuchus (but its dentition is unknown, and related Laganosuchus lacks serrations completely and has perfectly symmetrical crowns, although Aegisuchus is larger, so who knows). *Also relatively thin jaws of Stomatosuchids are unlikely to have teeth with long roots like these ones Like this But what do you think about anterior Hamadasuchus? Looks like there is enough space to house root this size and they are also finely serrated and slightly distally recurved and have very fine labial/lingual ridges. Cranial osteology and phylogenetic relationships of Hamadasuchus rebouli(Crocodyliformes: Mesoeucrocodylia) from the Cretaceous of Morocco Araripesuchus anteriors are different, they have much wider crowns and larger mesial and distal depressions near the base. 3 The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Another very useful thread in the making. Thank you, Troodon. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 10 hours ago, Anomotodon said: Great job, @Troodon, for putting it all together!! I actually thought of another idea for this type of teeth. At first I thought that they are from Aegisuchus (but its dentition is unknown, and related Laganosuchus lacks serrations completely and has perfectly symmetrical crowns, although Aegisuchus is larger, so who knows). *Also relatively thin jaws of Stomatosuchids are unlikely to have teeth with long roots like these ones Like this But what do you think about anterior Hamadasuchus? Looks like there is enough space to house root this size and they are also finely serrated and slightly distally recurved and have very fine labial/lingual ridges. Thanks, I was thinking it could be a Crocodylomorph but its a very compressed tooth and did not see any matches with those you suggested. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Another great thread, thanks Frank. Could you explain the physical differences be anterior/posterior (I know @Anomotodon has touched on this) maxillary/mandibular, determining adult/juvenile, distinguishing between different genus and anything else you may think of. Would be nice to make an educated guess on my teeth and I’m sure others would be interested. Maybe if a standard way of detailing Kem Kem teeth (such as the way photographs should be taken of the teeth, setation count &c) members could have a Kem Kem teeth gallery. I think this would be hugely beneficial both for the forum and a wider audience. John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 1 hour ago, JohnBrewer said: Could you explain the physical differences be anterior/posterior (I know @Anomotodon has touched on this) maxillary/mandibular, determining adult/juvenile, distinguishing between different genus and anything else you may think of. Good Question Always a good general reference What is true in this graphic is also good in the jaw When we talk about teeth we are addressing those found in the Premaxillary, Maxillary and in the Dentary (or Mandible) positions of the jaw. They are typically all different, some more than others, why its so difficult to ID teeth. You can see it here in our Spinosaurus illustration Tooth Anatomy Adult or Juvenile? It can be very difficult to determining if its an adult or juvenile tooth. Replacement teeth and Unerupted teeth get in the way. If you look at the jaw of a theropod there are all size teeth in it. Identification of isolated teeth is extremely hard since you have so many similar teeth from different species and all the variations in the jaw. Comparative methods are the best and technical papers is the way to go. Why we have this topic..this is what is lacking from the Kem Kem....little to go with.. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Excellent post. Will be printing some of this out. Thanks Frank. John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 morph type 9b for your use in this highly informative post. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 I have posted these on the forum before. But I'll link them here again for easy reference. I have a number of Kem Kem teeth, but I have also scanned a few of them. I think this one fits morphotype 7 quite well. Although it's much stubbier than your slender example. Specimen is 1.9 cm tall Similar to your morphotype 7a. but the base seems a little wider. A rather large example of morphotype 9 (Spinosauridae indet.) Specimen is 9 cm tall. And both my Carcharodontosaurid teeth look like they fit with morphotype 10b 6 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 4 hours ago, Haravex said: morph type 9b for your use in this highly informative post. Thanks have added but are there Carinae present at the midline of the tooth. Not apparent in your pictures @Haravex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 I remembered that I also have almost morph 9b tooth, but I thought it is simply a straight Elosuchus tooth. What do you think? It has some very fine randomly spaced wrinkles that I have seen on other crocodile teeth. Although Haravex tooth definitely looks like a spino. 2 The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 14, 2018 Author Share Posted February 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Anomotodon said: I remembered that I also have almost morph 9b tooth, but I thought it is simply a straight Elosuchus tooth. What do you think? It has some very fine randomly spaced wrinkles that I have seen on other crocodile teeth. Although Haravex tooth definitely looks like a spino. Are there carinae present midline of the tooth both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 I want to add that that type 9b only appears in the upper regions of the kem kem beds aka Ifezouane formation and also these teeth i have personally never seen above 2.5 inches or the golden 70mm mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Andy- Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Here's another morph type 4 tooth. 2 Looking forward to meeting my fellow Singaporean collectors! Do PM me if you are a Singaporean, or an overseas fossil-collector coming here for a holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Troodon said: Are there carinae present midline of the tooth both sides Yes, carinae are developed and in the middle of the tooth (from both mesial and distal view). The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hxmendoza Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 Great post as usual Frank. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 12 hours ago, Anomotodon said: Yes, carinae are developed and in the middle of the tooth (from both mesial and distal view). I would then say they are Spinosaurid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 15, 2018 Author Share Posted February 15, 2018 Thanks for the input and comments. Appreciate the examples provided and if there are more its welcomed. Hopefully we can start to put some family names to the one that are missing..would like some help from the scientific community with some new publications. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anomotodon Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 8 hours ago, Troodon said: I would then say they are Spinosaurid... Interesting, then I will have to change this picture in my gallery. The Tooth Fairy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 I've been doing some reading up on Spinosaurus teeth. So, in Results of Prof. E. Stromer's Research Expedition in the Deserts of Egypt there is quite an extensive description of the teeth of the Spinosaurus aegyptiacus holotype. Stromer describes the teeth as being "scarcely to very slightly recurved". But here's where it gets interesting. The enamel is described as such "Their enamel is in general smooth, only at the base is it sometimes finely vertically streaked and so finely wrinkled that one sees it only with the magnifying glass." I'm not sure if it's an artifact of translation from German, but Stromer sometimes uses phrases that seem a little strange, so I'm not quite sure of by "vertically streaked" he means that the enamel is faceted or fluted. the lack of standardised terms can sometimes be really annoying. No vertical streaks appear on Stromer's drawings of the teeth of the holotype. But it is very clear in that most of the enamel is smooth. And the holotype included teeth from both the lower and the upper jaw. Near the end of the paper he also notes that the teeth of Spinosaurus completely lack serration on the keels/carinae. There's also a paper from 2002 that talks about a Spinosaurus specimen from Tunisia and it's implications. A new specimen of Spinosaurus (Dinosauria, Theropoda) from the Lower Cretaceous of Tunisia, with remarks on the evolutionary history of the Spinosauridae Here Buffetaut and Ouaja identify a dentary fragment on the jaw and teeth morphology as Spinosaurus cf. aegyptiacus. They also note that the teeth are quite different from those of Baryonyx, which has clear facets on the enamel as well as serrations on the carinae. In A new specimen of the theropod dinosaur Baryonyx from the early Cretaceous of Portugal and taxonomic validity of Suchosaurus you can also see some great pictures of Baryonyx walkeri teeth with facets, serrations and enamel wrinkling. To recap: Spinosaurus aegyptiacus teeth - generally smooth enamel with some wrinkling - if facets are present at all, not as strong as Baryonyx - no serrations on carinae Baryonyx walkeri teeth - faceted crowns with some wrinkling - serrations present on carinae Clearly we need more and better specimens of Spinosaurids from the Kem Kem beds. But, it seems that some teeth could tentatively placed in Baryonychinae or Spinosaurinae, as it might be more likely to be Sigilmassasaurus if serrations are present or Spinosaurus if serrations are absent. Edit: Though I still need to read the whole thing. In the description of Irritator (which is generally considered to be closely related to Spinosaurus and less to Baryonyx) has strong fluting on the tooth crowns like Baryonyx does. It also mentions wrinkles on the enamel of some teeth. 7 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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