The question of the Corbicula's

[Max-fossils]

Hi all,

 

Another very specific bivalve question for you all, this time regarding the freshwater species Corbicula fluminalis.

 

So on the Wikipedia page: LINK, it says that this species is originally from Asia, but was introduced to Europe (and USA). Meaning it was brought here by humans. 

 

But, what is weird is that I found 2 fossil specimens of this species (as well as modern ones sometimes) here in the Netherlands! From the late Pleistocene, some 400K years ago. Long before humans had the means to introduce bivalve species like this in new places (and also long before humans came to the Netherlands in the first place). 

 

Oh, also, something relevant to take into account is that this species is NOT present in Eemian sediments! (late Pleistocene, 120k years) 

 

So how come that this species was "there" 400K years ago, disappeared, and then "came back"?

The only thing I would consider as a solution is that the species went locally extinct (while still thriving in Eastern Asia) and was then reintroduced, but what is surprising is that I don't think that one single species could be alive in several different places far away from each other (the distance from Amsterdam to Beijing is nearly 8000 km!)... I don't think a bivalve species could possibly be present in such faraway places. 

 

So my question to you all is: what happened? How could it be on/off/on for this species in the Netherlands?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Max

 

 

[ynot]

A species can be very wide spread if the ecologic conditions are suitable for it. When the conditions change in part of its habitat range a species can become "extinct" in that area while thriving elsewhere. If the conditions revert to a favorable  state the species range can extend back to its larger territory or beyond.

Man has been known to facilitate the expansion of certain species territories.

[Miocene_Mason]

They used to thrive in my pond till I unknowingly destroyed the population with my cousin by using them as bait. I reckon they will be fossils some day. Sorry I can’t add anything of substance.

[Max-fossils]

20 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

They used to thrive in my pond till I unknowingly destroyed the population with my cousin by using them as bait. I reckon they will be fossils some day. Sorry I can’t add anything of substance.

Lol... Poor shells though 

Bait for what?

 

20 hours ago, ynot said:

A species can be very wide spread if the ecologic conditions are suitable for it. When the conditions change in part of its habitat range a species can become "extinct" in that area while thriving elsewhere. If the conditions revert to a favorable  state the species range can extend back to its larger territory or beyond.

Man has been known to facilitate the expansion of certain species territories.

Hmm... Well I still don't think it would be possible for a freshwater bivalve to by itself travel from Western Europe all the way to Eastern Asia. 

[Max-fossils]

To give you all an update, I talked to my biology teacher today, and he came up with a rather plausible theory. 

 

He said that, as of course this happened in the Pleistocene, there were Ice Ages. The shells might have gotten trapped in ice, and as the "ice blocks" traveled further, and then thawed, the shells would have been transported to new areas. If this happened successively, it would have been possible that the species gradually got transported from Western Europe all the way to Eastern Asia, where it thrived later, while becoming extinct in Europe.

 

Now of course this is only a theory, but it I think it's a plausible one. 

[Miocene_Mason]

3 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

Bait for what?

Fish! The bluegill sunfish love them. I caught and released the fish of course, but the fun is in the fight! They are also invasive clams so it’s not that bad, they already displaced the native ones. Gotta reintroduce some native ones someday soon.

[caldigger]

3 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

To give you all an update, I talked to my biology teacher today, and he came up with a rather plausible theory. 

 

He said that, as of course this happened in the Pleistocene, there were Ice Ages. The shells might have gotten trapped in ice, and as the "ice blocks" traveled further, and then thawed, the shells would have been transported to new areas. If this happened successively, it would have been possible that the species gradually got transported from Western Europe all the way to Eastern Asia, where it thrived later, while becoming extinct in Europe.

 

Now of course this is only a theory, but it I think it's a plausible one. 

Are you finding them in shell deposit layers?  I doubt glaciers would successively pick up and move, pick up and move shells repeatedly and keep the same depositional layer intact.

[Al Dente]

Are you sure this is C. fluminalis? There are many species of Corbicula. Here in North Carolina C. densata  can be found in the Pliocene Yorktown Formation which is a marine Formation.

[Coco]

Hi,

 

15 hours ago, Max-fossils said:

He said that, as of course this happened in the Pleistocene, there were Ice Ages. The shells might have gotten trapped in ice, and as the "ice blocks" traveled further, and then thawed, the shells would have been transported to new areas. If this happened successively, it would have been possible that the species gradually got transported from Western Europe all the way to Eastern Asia, where it thrived later, while becoming extinct in Europe.

Do you think that alive mollusks buried in the ice would have survived enough time so that the ice takes them to Asia or the opposite ? I doubt it...

 

Coco

[Max-fossils]

19 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

Fish! The bluegill sunfish love them. I caught and released the fish of course, but the fun is in the fight! They are also invasive clams so it’s not that bad, they already displaced the native ones. Gotta reintroduce some native ones someday soon.

Ha, nice! 

 

18 hours ago, caldigger said:

Are you finding them in shell deposit layers?  I doubt glaciers would successively pick up and move, pick up and move shells repeatedly and keep the same depositional layer intact.

No, they are found in loose sediment (sand); mixed in with mainly modern and Eemian shells. 

 

18 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Are you sure this is C. fluminalis? There are many species of Corbicula. Here in North Carolina C. densata  can be found in the Pliocene Yorktown Formation which is a marine Formation.

Yes, I am sure that they are C. fluminalis, and mollusk paleontologist Ronald Pouwer at Naturalis confirmed that this is indeed a late Pleistocene Corbicula fluminalis. 

 

7 hours ago, Coco said:

Hi,

 

Do you think that alive mollusks buried in the ice would have survived enough time so that the ice takes them to Asia or the opposite ? I doubt it...

 

Coco

Yeah I do think that this is weird, it's the only thing that makes the theory a little improbable. Then again some species of frog literally let their whole bodies freeze during winter, only for it to thaw afterwards in spring, without any harm done to their body. So that another animal species can do this too is not impossible, I think. 

[ynot]

I think the distribution of water living animals is more likely to be facilitated by changes in the drainage basins.

[Max-fossils]

On 2/18/2018 at 1:34 AM, ynot said:

I think the distribution of water living animals is more likely to be facilitated by changes in the drainage basins.

(Sorry for the late answer)

 

That is more likely indeed. But the changes must have been mighty big then!