amon81 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Hi everybody, I've seen this spino vertebra. I don't see any red flag but I'm not a great expert. The price is near 300$ . Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Need photos from all side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amon81 Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, amon81 said: Hi everybody, I've seen this spino vertebra. I don't any red flags but I'm nota a great Expert. The price is near 300$ . Thanks , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 These views by themselves are not adequate to see what you have. Do you have any side views? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 With just these angles I don't think this can be identified properly. More and better photos are needed. The lighting also seems kinda poor. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pemphix Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Seems a lot of repairs and a lot of matrix left on the piece. As i have learned from the posts of Troodon, this is always a sign to be carefull with Morocco stuff... But anyhow - yes, better photos are needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amon81 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 One side isn't visible. If both the front and back have concave ends, then it's not Spinosaur. If it's not Spino, at this size my bet is Carcharodontosaurid dorsal vertebra. The process on the one side does look like it was glued on, the rest of the vertebra looks good though. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amon81 Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Processes on both sides glues on. But it's a lovely vertebra. 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I feel like you have indeed picked up a very nice vertebrae, however there is one thing I'm not entirely sure of given the size of it that it is a Carcharodontosaurid dorsal vert it is a dorsal vert for sure but seems rather small, what about the possibility of it being a large bodied abelsaurid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pemphix Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 24 minutes ago, Haravex said: I feel like you have indeed picked up a very nice vertebrae, however there is one thing I'm not entirely sure of given the size of it that it is a Carcharodontosaurid dorsal vert it is a dorsal vert for sure but seems rather small, what about the possibility of it being a large bodied abelsaurid? Well possible, but keep in mind that it could be a juvenile guy so the vert is/would be smaller... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I agree with LordTrilobite that if both ends are concave it's not a Spinosaur and it appears to be the case. If you compare this vertebra to the Argentinian Carcharodontosaurid Tyrannotitan chubutensis most of the dorsal vertebrae shown seem to contain pleurocoels which are not present here. So that would argue against if being one of these two animals but not all the T. chubutensis were shown so it's unclear.. Have nothing to compare against large bodied Abelsaurids. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Yes now that I checked some more Carcharodontosaurid, it doesn't quite match. And actually, Abelisaur might be right. What this looks like imo. This looks pretty similar to some caudal vertebrae from the base of the tail of Carnotaurus. The centrum is pretty similar. But what matches best is the large curved lateral process. Mainly the vertical angle at which it protudes is where it differs. Also, I haven't studied this in detail. But I have yet to see these strongly hooked lateral processes outside of Carnotaurini (it also appears on Aucasaurus). Does anyone know any other theropod that has these kinds of strongly curved lateral processes on their caudal vertebrae? Carnotaurus caudal vertebrae. Also, seeing as this piece is still on sale, the price of this piece is in Brittish pounds, not American dollars. In dollars the price is well over $500. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Nice information LT this will be another bookmarked post for later research, I was about to say troodon picked up a vert with a strong curved lateral process, then remembered it was the neural spine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Had forgotten about Carnotaurus. Here are a couple of dorsals. I think it's too wide and big to be a proximal caudal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I personally think it's the other way around. Too fat for dorsal Abelisaurid. Their dorsals are also much more pneumatic. This vertebra doesn't seem to have any of that. The dorsals also don't have the lateral process curved that strongly. This seems like it's an interesting piece though. And it's an interesting discussion as well. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Comparing the original vert that was posted to the reference material hear I would also be more in the caudal way of thinking. However it is vital to remember that this is vertebrae although it may be from an ablesaurid is not carnotaurus and there will be differences some of which my not be accountable for from just a single vertebrae. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Carnotaurus is from the Maastrichtian of South America, so I'm not saying that genus is present in Kem Kem. What I am saying, is that Carnotaurini might be present. The horn core I've posted on the forum before also looked most like a Carnotaurus horn than anything else. So it wouldn't surprise me if a horned relative of Carnotaurus is present in the Kem Kem beds. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amon81 Posted February 24, 2018 Author Share Posted February 24, 2018 Thanks all...therefore that it's not a spinosaurus...ok thanks.. i don't know what i've to do now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted March 2, 2018 Share Posted March 2, 2018 I wouldn't be surprised if this was a caudal vertebra... I am no expert, but I believe that this vertebra may be related to the Carcharodontosauridae family, as in the example below, if we compare with the caudal vertebra of the Veterupristisaurus milneri, here there is a certain resemblance... All the vertebrae that served as a holotype for the theropod Veterupristisaurus milneri, were discovered in the Tendaguru formation (German East Africa). What caught my attention in this vertebra were the concave ends... I know that Tendaguru Formation is Late Jurassic, while Kem Kem Beds is Late Cretaceous. Even so, Very good to be able to discuss this... Kem Kem is always like a box full of surprises... Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fitch1979 Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 On 2-3-2018 at 3:15 AM, Seguidora-de-Isis said: Tendaguru formation (German East Africa). Hi .. think you mean Tanzania - there 's no such think anymore as German East Africa Nevertheless, interesting reply and interesting topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amon81 Posted March 3, 2018 Author Share Posted March 3, 2018 On 2/3/2018 at 3:15 AM, Seguidora-de-Isis said: I wouldn't be surprised if this was a caudal vertebra... I am no expert, but I believe that this vertebra may be related to the Carcharodontosauridae family, as in the example below, if we compare with the caudal vertebra of the Veterupristisaurus milneri, here there is a certain resemblance... All the vertebrae that served as a holotype for the theropod Veterupristisaurus milneri, were discovered in the Tendaguru formation (German East Africa). What caught my attention in this vertebra were the concave ends... I know that Tendaguru Formation is Late Jurassic, while Kem Kem Beds is Late Cretaceous. Even so, Very good to be able to discuss this... Kem Kem is always like a box full of surprises... Wow, if it were Veterupristisaurus milneri, could be a great and super rare item in any collection. Do you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 3 hours ago, amon81 said: Wow, if it were Veterupristisaurus milneri, could be a great and super rare item in any collection. Do you agree? Of course I agree . But particularly I doubt it's one Veterupristisaurus milneri, definitely not! To clarify this, I just did this posting trying to make a possible starting point for the studies. In addition, millions of years are apart from one species of the other. I respect the opinion of the other members of the forum, but I, particularly due to singular morphology, I do not see a ablesauride here. But anyway, I believe yours is a Carcharodontosaurid indeterminate caudal vertebra. But it's just what I particularly believe, because for now, the correct thing would be to label this vertebra as a Theropod indeterminate. It's a special vertebra, very rare in the beds of Kem Kem. Worthy of being placed in the best place on the shelf. Moreover, it is a rich source for further studies, because we know little of the Kem Kem. Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haravex Posted March 3, 2018 Share Posted March 3, 2018 To clarify this up for the OP this is not a vertebrae from Veterupristisaurus, as this would be from Tendaguru Formation in Tanzania, this time period is late Jurassic approximately 154 million years ago and is considered the oldest of the Carcharodontosauridae family, You vertebrae looking at the color and preservation, not to mention the classic Moroccan super glue/sand repair job comes from the kem kem beds (by the color it looks to be the lower formation which i believe is called the Ifezouane Formation) the date of which is believed to be around 112 - 93.5 million years ago, this would put your vertebrae fossil out of this date range by 42 - 60.5 million years. As for what it is I'm leaning towards a large bodied ablesauride but could indeed be from a Carcharodontosauridae (of which two are believed to be present but more evidence is need to prove this) I do feel confident enough to say that it is not from a spinosauride family. It's a really nice vertebrae and with some decent prepwork or professional restoration could look wonderful in your collection, however until more research material is published on the kem kem beds, I personally would label it as theropod indet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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