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Baryonyx

Spinosaurus tooth root or non peeled of enamel?

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Baryonyx

Is the white part down there peeled of enamel or the root. It also looks like a port of the tooth was cut or worn down.

IMG_20180312_210001.jpg

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Baryonyx

IMG_20180312_210008.jpg

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Baryonyx

Unfortunately I can't upload more pictures.

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jpc

the white stripe looks like a wear facet.  The white at the base is the top of the root.

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Baryonyx
10 minutes ago, jpc said:

the white stripe looks like a wear facet.  The white at the base is the top of the root.

Where exactly does the root begin?

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Troodon

I'm with jpc looks like a wear facet but that is very uncommon with Spinosaurid teeth.  The root should begin around where the enamel ends. 

 

Reminder we don't know what Spinosaurid species this tooth belongs to.  We don't even know if Spinosaurus aegyptiacus is valid in Morocco

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Baryonyx

But isn't most of spino material that is found Moroccan? I mean didn't Niza Ibrahim find the spino bones for his reconstruction in Morocco?

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Baryonyx

And what exactly do you mean with feeding facet? Isn't it too smooth to be worn of by feeding.

IMG_20180312_210013.jpg

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jerdin007

Hello all, 

 

This is my opinion on the white parts in the spinosaur tooth. 

 

The first picture shows the enamel above and the white part below is the root. The boundary between enamel and root is not a straight line in spinosaur teeth. The best way to show that the white part is the root and not peeled off enamel is by looking at the tooth under a binocular. You will notice that the enamel is thick at the tip and gets very thin gradually at the root-enamel boundary. If it would be peeled-off enamel, then the enamel will still be thick but I guess that's not the case here. 

 

On the second picture you can again recognize the root by the dull coarse white surface. The shiny smooth white surface is not a wear facet (as in created by feeding) in my opinion. A first argument is the triangular portion of enamel that is sticking out. In a wear facet, I think this should also have worn off. So what do we have if this is not a wear facet? I think that the enamel broke off, together with a thin portion of dentine. Dentine is built up in layers. These layers are separated from each other by thin lines called the von Ebner lines. I think the dentine broke just along such a surface which creates the smoothness. You can see a spinosaur teeth as cones of dentine on top of each other as in the picture of Goedert et al (2016) and I think it is along such a cone that the tooth broke. As argument, you can see that the white smooth surface extends in the root (made up of dentine) and it creates a small rim. 

 

I hope what I wrote here is clear enough to express my thoughts. 

 

Kind greetings

 

Jeroen from Belgium

 

image.thumb.png.1532be13df3faf1be81d29f2fce62968.png

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Baryonyx
7 minutes ago, jerdin007 said:

Hello all, 

 

This is my opinion on the white parts in the spinosaur tooth. 

 

The first picture shows the enamel above and the white part below is the root. The boundary between enamel and root is not a straight line in spinosaur teeth. The best way to show that the white part is the root and not peeled off enamel is by looking at the tooth under a binocular. You will notice that the enamel is thick at the tip and gets very thin gradually at the root-enamel boundary. If it would be peeled-off enamel, then the enamel will still be thick but I guess that's not the case here. 

 

On the second picture you can again recognize the root by the dull coarse white surface. The shiny smooth white surface is not a wear facet (as in created by feeding) in my opinion. A first argument is the triangular portion of enamel that is sticking out. In a wear facet, I think this should also have worn off. So what do we have if this is not a wear facet? I think that the enamel broke off, together with a thin portion of dentine. Dentine is built up in layers. These layers are separated from each other by thin lines called the von Ebner lines. I think the dentine broke just along such a surface which creates the smoothness. You can see a spinosaur teeth as cones of dentine on top of each other as in the picture of Goedert et al (2016) and I think it is along such a cone that the tooth broke. As argument, you can see that the white smooth surface extends in the root (made up of dentine) and it creates a small rim. 

 

I hope what I wrote here is clear enough to express my thoughts. 

 

Kind greetings

 

Jeroen from Belgium

 

image.thumb.png.1532be13df3faf1be81d29f2fce62968.png

Thanks do you have more information about spinosaurus teeth and how they are build.

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Troodon
46 minutes ago, Baryonyx said:

But isn't most of spino material that is found Moroccan? I mean didn't Niza Ibrahim find the spino bones for his reconstruction in Morocco?

No Spinosaurids are found all over the world including Niger, Algeria and Egypt.  We have multiple Spinosaurid in the Kem Kem Sigilmassasaurus and Spinosaurus and we know so little there may be others.  Ibrahim finding are not accepted by many paleontologists that are familiar with the region.  More is unknown than known.

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Troodon
53 minutes ago, Baryonyx said:

And what exactly do you mean with feeding facet? Isn't it too smooth to be worn of by feeding.

 

Wear facets are normally smooth and are caused by the opposing tooth rubbing on it mostly during feeding

 

A paper on Tyrannosaurids 

https://www.app.pan.pl/article/item/app50-093.html

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jerdin007

Hi Baryonyx, 

 

First of all, thanks for finding my post informative. 

 

It's not that there is a paper out there on how spinosaur teeth are build. 

I based myself mostly on what I could see on the pictures and on what I saw on my own spinosaur teeth that I studied for my thesis. 

 

The picture comes from a study on isotopes: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291955600_Preliminary_investigation_of_seasonal_patterns_recorded_in_the_oxygen_isotope_compositions_of_theropod_dinosaur_tooth_enamel

This picture was made based on histology studies but they study only thin sections, not entire teeth so I guess that's not so interesting for you. 

 

I hope this helps.

 

Jeroen

 

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Baryonyx
8 hours ago, Troodon said:

Wear facets are normally smooth and are caused by the opposing tooth rubbing on it mostly during feeding

 

A paper on Tyrannosaurids 

https://www.app.pan.pl/article/item/app50-093.html

But the paper says that it mostly appears on the lingual side of the tooth. That's not the case with mine. 

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Troodon
5 hours ago, Baryonyx said:

But the paper says that it mostly appears on the lingual side of the tooth. That's not the case with mine. 

Paper was just provided address your question on what feeding facets are and that they are smooth.   Spinosaurid's have a very different jaw structure than Tyrannosaurids so it's a different dynamic but don't know if its been studied.  We are just guessing on what happened to your tooth since like I said it's not a common feature you see on Spinosaurids.  

 

 

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Baryonyx
3 hours ago, Troodon said:

Paper was just provided address your question on what feeding facets are and that they are smooth.   Spinosaurid's have a very different jaw structure than Tyrannosaurids so it's a different dynamic but don't know if its been studied.  We are just guessing on what happened to your tooth since like I said it's not a common feature you see on Spinosaurids.  

 

 

You think someone cut it or polished it off? It goes to the root not only the enamel. And how big do spinosaur teeth get?

15209531695242093988747.jpg

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Troodon

Unless you were there when it happened everything is speculation.  No idea how big Spino crowns get I've seen crowns over 5 inches.

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Haravex

can't believe there is a spinosauridae post I have missed anyway its my understanding that they do get facet wear, here is one from my own inventory.

SP4-3.jpg

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Troodon
4 minutes ago, Haravex said:

can't believe there is a spinosauridae post I have missed anyway its my understanding that they do get facet wear, here is one from my own inventory.

 

Nice to see one, not common

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Baryonyx
2 hours ago, Haravex said:

can't believe there is a spinosauridae post I have missed anyway its my understanding that they do get facet wear, here is one from my own inventory.

SP4-3.jpg

The wear off looks exactly like on mine! Thank you for your picture it helps a lot! Do you have more Spinosaurus material that I can compare to my tooth?

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Haravex

I have many many spinosauridae teeth it depends what you mean to compare with troodon, made a fantastic post highlighting the differences in kem kem theropod teeth maybe have a look at that thread.

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zekky

Could have just had a tooth come in a bit off and grow up into the other tooth.

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Baryonyx
5 hours ago, Haravex said:

I have many many spinosauridae teeth it depends what you mean to compare with troodon, made a fantastic post highlighting the differences in kem kem theropod teeth maybe have a look at that thread.

Already know that post thanks.

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