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Hey Ken, fascinating stuff. congrats! I am exceedingly curious as to why these teeth are showing up here and not elsewhere. I read some of your thoughts. Could it be because that noone has really looked/finely screened other nearby locations and everyone is really chasing after the larger macro material/finds? I think I've read here or somewhere that nothing has come up from the Peace...Have you screened any SMR/old APAC or aware of anyone screening Tamiami material?  Have the UF guys confirmed this location is actually Tamiami FM--if yes how did they arrive at that conclusion..geologic maps dont see very descriptive about what is where.  

@digit

Regards, Chris 

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Nice thread. 

I know almost nothing about sharks teeth, but this is very interesting stuff. :)

Life's Good!

Tortoise Friend.

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9 hours ago, Plantguy said:

Hey Ken, fascinating stuff. congrats! I am exceedingly curious as to why these teeth are showing up here and not elsewhere. I read some of your thoughts. Could it be because that noone has really looked/finely screened other nearby locations and everyone is really chasing after the larger macro material/finds? I think I've read here or somewhere that nothing has come up from the Peace...Have you screened any SMR/old APAC or aware of anyone screening Tamiami material?  Have the UF guys confirmed this location is actually Tamiami FM--if yes how did they arrive at that conclusion..geologic maps dont see very descriptive about what is where.  

I'll PM you with more information.

 

I'm always happy to gather micro-matrix from other localities to see if any match the novelty of finds that have been found at Cookiecutter Creek. I have looked through many 5-gallon buckets of micro-matrix from the Peace River and a few of its tributaries. I've found some interesting vole and Sigmodon (Cotton Rat) teeth, tons of fish teeth, and lots of tiny baby teeth from the shark species we recognize in our sifters from larger adults. One of the more common shark teeth when looking at micros is from the genus Rhizoprionodon (a genus of smaller requiem sharks known as "sharpnose sharks"). These sharks rarely top a meter in length and so many of their teeth turn up while picking micro-matrix.

 

https://www.floridamuseum.ufl.edu/fish/discover/species-profiles/rhizoprionodon-terraenovae

 

It is possible (and would seem likely) that Isistius teeth should turn up in more localities than just Cookiecutter Creek. However, in my research (so far) all teeth from this genus in Florida have been able to be traced back to this one small creek. I spoke with Becky (who owns Canoe Outpost Peace River) last weekend and she knows of a local shark tooth collector in the Arcadia area who has Cookiecutter Shark teeth in his collection and years ago had her and some of her family picking through micro-matrix looking for Isistius. I'm trying to track down that contact to see if this micro-matrix came from the same locality or someplace new.

 

 

Yesterday, I received a box from Tony (@ynot) containing the novel (and presently unique) tooth that he found in the Cookiecutter micro-matrix from one of Jeff's (@jcbshark) forum auctions a few years back. The tooth arrived in great condition and will be heading up to the permanent collection at the FLMNH shortly when I make a trip up there to do some volunteer digging at Montbook.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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  • 3 weeks later...

Who says lightning doesn't strike twice?

 

All you have to do is stand around in the open during a thunderstorm. :P

 

Just finished the dregs of the bucket of micro-matrix I collected last month at Cookiecutter Creek. I had hoped to find another example of the unusual little tooth that @ynot had found while picking through the micro-matrix from this unique little locality but instead came upon the Heterodontus tooth shown earlier in this topic. In the very last cup I wash shocked (and quite elated) to see yet another Heterodontus specimen.

 

2018-04-08 12-09-55.jpg

 

So that now makes 2 from this one 5-gallon bucket from the Cookiecutter magical mystery creek. I doubt that these are associated in anyway except for the sheer coincidence of them both randomly ending up in my bucket. It does, however, prove that this family of sharks is now precisely half as rare in this locality as it was earlier this morning. :) These elongated "loaf-shaped" teeth are in many was similar to the pavement teeth from myliobatid (eagle) rays. There is good reason for this similarity as this seems to be an example of convergent evolution driven by a similar food source. Eagle rays and bullhead sharks both feed on hard-shelled prey (mainly mollusks and crustaceans along with some urchins for the bullhead sharks) and use these crushing plates to crack the hard exoskeletons. Horn Sharks in the bullhead shark family have one of the strongest bite force (relative to its size) of any shark--so be glad that these rarely reach a meter in length! Eagle Rays in the Tropical Western Atlantic region tend to be more numerous in areas that still have reasonable conch densities (where they have not been decimated by overfishing) and that makes sense since small conch are a main component of their diet.

 

Having now recently found two Heterodontus teeth from this locality, I'm starting to wonder if I may have overlooked some in the past mistaking them for worn myliobatid tooth plates. I'm doing to have to may much closer attention to any of these tooth plates I spot in the future to make sure none are really masquerading Heterodontus laterals. I may also have to go through my little containers with specimens from Cookiecutter Creek and double check any of the myliobatid plates to verify that there is not something more special hiding there.

 

 

I also came across a couple of other interesting finds today that I suspect are both from some species of fish. The first one I originally thought was a broken and worn stingray tail spine which are reasonably common in this locality (as well as other places like the Peace River). This one made me do a double-take though as it was unusually curved (stingray tail spines are always straight as an arrow). It is not uncommon for the tiny rear-pointing barbs on a tail spine to be worn or broken off on specimens but when I put this piece under higher magnification, the "serrations" on only the convex edge revealed themselves to be the points in between a series of tooth sockets (alveoli). Though missing the teeth this appears to be a fragment of fish jawbone. The other piece initially had me thinking Heterodontus tooth till I saw the texture on the upper surface and the concave nature of the underside. I now need to so some searching online (or in my ID books) to see if I can match this up with either a bony (non-chondrichthyan) fish tooth or perhaps a small armored plate. Wondering if either of these two pieces ring any bells for @Al Dente or anybody else familiar with tiny fish bits?

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

2018-04-08 12-19-37.jpg    2018-04-08 12-22-12.jpg

 

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15 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

The serrated object is part of a catfish pectoral fin spine.

Ah, I always get fooled by these when they have the distinctive ends broken off. It is interesting that there are pits between the serrated bumps along the trailing edge. Under 10x magnification I can see that this trailing edge is asymmetrical with one side being so high as to almost cover these serrations while on the other side of the serrations the bone is lower showing the serrations and pits between much better (hard to explain in text and would be challenging to try to photograph. I'm assuming because of this asymmetry that this is likely from one of the pectoral spines rather than the dorsal spine which I would expect to be symmetrical in cross-section. Thanks for the quick reply--does the other rectangular item look familiar?

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Came across a small (but not really micro) shark tooth in the last of my Cookiecutter Creek micro-matrix. This odd little serrated tooth is about 6.5mm across the base of the root and the distance from the bottom edge of the root to the tip of the crown is about 7.5mm--not a large tooth at all but bigger than any of the largest Isistius and larger than any of the small Rhizoprionodon teeth.

 

It kind of reminds me of a hammerhead (Sphyrna) with the angled crown and what could be envisioned as a "hammerhead notch" at the left base of the primary cusp of the crown in the photo below. However, it doesn't really have a deep nutrient groove in the root (though it may be worn in this specimen) and too many other things seem contrary to other images of hammerhead teeth online.

 

There are faint serrations (much worn) along the primary cusp and the curve of the primary cusp sent me looking at tiger shark teeth but from my experience and what I see online tiger teeth tent to have more strongly curved roots and I haven't seen any images of Galeocerdo or Physogaleus teeth that seem to match up well. The other odd thing about this tooth is the cusplet-like bump on the lower right edge of this tooth.

 

I'm likely overlooking something obvious or being denser than a fossil but this tooth just doesn't seem to fit into my concepts for teeth that I usually find here in South Florida. Anybody familiar with shark teeth that resemble this and can school me a bit to add to my knowledge base? @Al Dente @Harry Pristis

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

2018-04-08 12-13-54.jpg

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Ken - that’s an odd little tooth. I think it is Carcharhinus but I can’t find any in my references that look similar. There are a couple modern species that live in the Pacific that have teeth that resemble this tooth. One is the Blacktip reef shark C. melanopterus.

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Thanks! I'm glad it wasn't one so simple that you had to wait to finish rolling your eyes before you could type your response. Agreed that C. melanopterus does seem similar based on this image (among others):

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Carcharhinus_melanopterus_upper_teeth.jpg

 

Given this species distribution I'd guess that it might be a similar species that would be more likely to be off Florida's coast in the past. I'll try to do more searches for species in this genus and see if I can come up with any that match closer (and could actually be found here). Happy to receive the assessment "odd little tooth" as it definitely didn't fit into any my known fossil teeth search-image buckets. If I manage to track down a more probable ID I'll post back here so we can all learn.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

P.S.: Swam with lots of Pacific Blacktip Reef Sharks over the years and I'm glad not to have had a close-up view of any of their dentition. ;)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/9/2018 at 4:02 PM, Al Dente said:

Ken - that’s an odd little tooth. I think it is Carcharhinus but I can’t find any in my references that look similar. There are a couple modern species that live in the Pacific that have teeth that resemble this tooth. One is the Blacktip reef shark C. melanopterus.

 

On 4/9/2018 at 4:21 PM, digit said:

Thanks! I'm glad it wasn't one so simple that you had to wait to finish rolling your eyes before you could type your response. Agreed that C. melanopterus does seem similar based on this image (among others):

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Carcharhinus_melanopterus_upper_teeth.jpg

 

Given this species distribution I'd guess that it might be a similar species that would be more likely to be off Florida's coast in the past. I'll try to do more searches for species in this genus and see if I can come up with any that match closer (and could actually be found here). Happy to receive the assessment "odd little tooth" as it definitely didn't fit into any my known fossil teeth search-image buckets. If I manage to track down a more probable ID I'll post back here so we can all learn.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

P.S.: Swam with lots of Pacific Blacktip Reef Sharks over the years and I'm glad not to have had a close-up view of any of their dentition. ;)

 

 

I took some pictures of two upper extant Carcharhinus melanopterus (Blacktip Reef Shark) teeth ( both 9 mm) that I have in my collection for a comparison.

 

5adf6f6a723c8_Carcharhinusmelanopterus(BlacktipReefShark)Upper9mm.thumb.jpg.8dba8be06208c464eea9debcbb6dcdec.jpg

5adf6f68cfbc6_Carcharhinusmelanopterus(BlacktipReefShark)Upper9mm2.thumb.jpg.d2ee3e2da943bf60f77e25917c08e0eb.jpg

 

 

5adf6f6cc63c0_Carcharhinusmelanopterus(BlacktipReefShark)Upper29mm.thumb.jpg.2a8d97f81186bb060802e6d52aec5d7d.jpg

5adf6f6ba203d_Carcharhinusmelanopterus(BlacktipReefShark)Upper29mm2.thumb.jpg.1411ab9c35695abd7fe541320b01ed72.jpg

 

Marco Sr.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 3/20/2018 at 5:47 AM, digit said:

I received a box from Tony (@ynot) containing the novel (and presently unique) tooth that he found in the Cookiecutter micro-matrix from one of Jeff's (@jcbshark) forum auctions a few years back. The tooth arrived in great condition and will be heading up to the permanent collection at the FLMNH shortly when I make a trip up there to do some volunteer digging at Montbook.

Hey Ken,

Any feedback on this piece?

 

Regards,

Tony

Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys."

Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough."

 

My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection

My favorite thread on TFF.

 

 

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No feedback yet as I haven't made it up to Gainesville yet. My life has been keeping me too busy lately and I haven't had the time to make the roadtrip north yet. I may have missed my window for being able to dig at Montbrook as it is getting rather late in the season. Still want to make a visit up there and I'd rather hand deliver the specimens instead of relying on the post office (not that I'm paranoid but would rather take them up myself).

 

I'm off on vacation in June and I'm currently out training people in the Bahamas (Eleuthera) at the moment. Hoping to find a window to hit Gainesville for a week or so. Will let you know when I do. Here's what I'm up to at the moment:

 

http://blueprojectatlantis.org/atlantic-gulf-rapid-reef-assessment-training-of-trainers-sharing-the-key-to-understanding-coral-reefs/

 

 

-Ken

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  • 2 months later...

Amazing topic, it makes me excited when I read about you guys finding these novel teeth from this unique location! Those little buggers sure are interesting, and it sure makes me sad reading about your story about that greedy meg collector. Hopefully that doesn't happen again. Did the collector get punished in any way?

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The creek is in a reasonably remote location so someone could be in there messing things up for some time and nobody else would be even know. The friend of mine who turned me onto this fascinating little creek said that he used to go there to look for larger teeth at one time but after seeing the damage that the greedy and inconsiderate yahoo did to the banks that he steered clear of the site for some time. If word did get out to the authorities, he didn't want to be blamed for it.

 

BTW: Welcome to the forum! Not much fossil hunting on a volcanic island like Hawaii (other than possibly some corals and shells from older reefs).

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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  • 9 months later...

Here's a bit of an update on my quest to find additional specimens of the rare taxa from Cookiecutter Creek. Almost exactly 2 months ago Dave @Darktooth had the opportunity of a short fossil hunt that he managed to slip in during a family vacation to Florida. The Peace River was still too high to get into safely to hunt for fossils so we went to the only place available to us with the ground saturated with persistent rains--Cookiecutter Creek. Dave managed to get a variety of Florida fossils (shark teeth, shells, and a few other novelties). He also managed to get a moderate stash of CC Creek micro-matrix which has already turned out some nice Isistius triangulus teeth for his collection (a rare but tiny tooth that I hope has found a nice place in his collection). While Dave was picking through the larger material caught by the 1/4" screen I use as a stacked pair of sifters while collecting micro-matrix, I was able to harvest a sizeable hoard of matrix for myself--some five 5-gallon buckets! :drool::)

 

Here's a link to our trip with Dave:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/93234-running-of-the-bulls/&

 

In the last two months I've found a bit of spare waking hours here and there to process through a good amount of that material. I've optimized my process of picking through this micro-matrix by first classifying the fine gravel through my stackable sifting screens. This allows me to concentrate my searching looking only at one size class of material at a time. This lets me focus on different types of fossils that appear in the different size classes. It also lets me debulk the material by picking through the 1/4"-1/8" material which is the most coarse and bulkiest fraction of the classified material. I've saved the finer material to pick through once I've gone through all of the chunkier component of this micro-matrix. Some of the novelty taxa that I'm hoping to find more specimens of in this batch of micro-matrix will only show up (if I'm lucky) looking through the finer size classes.

 

Earlier topic showing how I classify my micro-matrix for optimal picking:

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/71406-optimizing-micro-matrix-sorting/

 

One species that usually shows up in the more coarse fraction of the micro-matrix is the lateral teeth of the Heterodontus horn sharks. I can count the number of specimens of this species on one hand (and barely cover my pinky fingernail with them). ;) I'm happy to announce that I've added to the count of this Florida rarity with a beautiful complete specimen that popped out of a plate of micro-matrix just a few minutes ago. This only took me picking through 20 gallons of micro-matrix bit by bit--very much a needle-haystack sort of thing. :blink:

 

Here's a photo of this little beauty:

 

P5031279.jpg

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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That's awesome Ken! Now that I know about this I will have to keep my eyes on alert when the rest of my micro matrix gets brought up by my in-laws. Who knows, maybe I will get lucky.:fingerscrossed: 

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I like Trilo-butts and I cannot lie.

 

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1 hour ago, Darktooth said:

Who knows, maybe I will get lucky.:fingerscrossed:

Only one way to find out--spend some quality time picking micro-matrix. ;)

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Marvelous find Ken ! Congrats for this little beauty !

 

Coco

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Un Greg...

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Great find Ken, never know what's gonna pop out of there:default_clap2:

Every once in a great while it's not just a big rock down there!

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15 hours ago, jcbshark said:

never know what's gonna pop out of there

Yup. A very sloooooow-motion pop. :P

 

I've still got some haystack left and I'd like a few more needles. ;)

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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