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minnbuckeye

Bones, teeth and scutes from peace river area For ID

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minnbuckeye

Item 1:  This has been suggested to be dire wolf or cat. Can we get more specific?

 

2018-03-016.thumb.jpg.7fb1115563b795a73566341962d0d9be.jpg

 

 

 

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minnbuckeye

Item 2: An especially small complex of 5 scutes from a glyptodont. I have had one suggestion already for genus and species .

 

2018-03-13.thumb.jpg.87642c89d203b59df4ff45a4518fdaf2.jpg 

 

 

Item # 3 was suggested as fish something??2018-03-015.thumb.jpg.3d5dc9eac23495c1231552b01cd90857.jpg 

 

 

 Item 4: Another tooth. Tapir??2018-03-017.thumb.jpg.3033667b60ded0c3b41fce8365667d28.jpg 

 

 

 Finally #5: A suggestion of a yearling deer horn2018-03-019.thumb.jpg.036afe5d07e0844dedae77c5dfa594da.jpg

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minnbuckeye

Sorry, am having problems with the system. It is acting funny, putting things where thy shouldn't be.

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minnbuckeye

Item 6: Another tooth

 

2018-03-021.thumb.jpg.3eaafce695ece3435a6fcbe8c4698ae5.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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caldigger

I'm going to answer "yes" to all of the above.

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Shellseeker

For your 5 scutes: I sent a photo to Richard Hulbert, curator of the vertebrate lab at University of Florida Museum of Natural History.

In the morning, a friend showed me this group of 5 osteoderms, that he had found last Sunday. I thought it might be Pachyarmatherium leiseyi but was not sure.

Richard's response:

Quote

The five armadillo osteoderms look more like Dasypus bellus to me.  I would need to see an image of their sides, so I can see their thickness to be sure. Richard

Can't quite tell the thickness..  3 tenths of an inch? Richard is proposing Armadillo scutes.

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Harry Pristis

The carnassial is an unfinished, unerupted P4 from a canid; not a cat.  I agree with Hulbert, the armor group is from Dasypus bellus. 

 

 

canislatransP4lpaircomposite.jpg

glyptodontarmor.jpg

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minnbuckeye

Thanks @Harry Pristis. Are you saying coyote?? or is your picture for example purposes. My "guide" thought dire wolf. I am curious as to why you feel this was unerupted. Does this then likely mean a very young animal? 

 

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digit
13 hours ago, minnbuckeye said:

Sorry, am having problems with the system. It is acting funny, putting things where thy shouldn't be.

As I have editing capabilities, I'll try to remove the duplicated images to make this more clear for others. Looks like you skipped #2 in your numbering as well so I'll renumber now before anybody starts referring to items by number.

 

 

BTW: Nice cluster of Dasypus bellus osteoderms. I've found just a few of these as singles over the years. They are nearly small enough to go through a 1/4" screen and definitely too small to catch in a 1/2" screen as they'd easily pass through that. This was a more modern armadillo relative very similar to the Nine-banded Armadillo (Dasypus novemcinctus) that still roams throughout Florida (and my backyard).

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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digit

There. I think we have the redundant images excised and the numbers sequential now.

 

#1: I would have been totally fooled by this one and thought it simply suggestively shaped matrix. Harry has seen more than his share of canid P4s (erupted or not) so I'd go with his opinion on this.

 

#2: Definitely Dasypus bellus given the thickness and diameter of the osteoderms. (Still quite envious of this find.)

 

#3: Yeah, has that "fishy" feeling to me as well but I'd be hard pressed to say what part of the fish this came from.

 

#4 & #6: Both look like Tapir teeth to me. #6 being a single cusp and #4 showing two cusps but broken perpendicular to #6.

 

#5: Does fit my comprehension of a broken tip (tine) of an antler. I don't know enough about antlers to say that this is from a yearling only that it seems to be a fragmentary tine. Occasionally, I'll find pieces of the main beam of the antler where it attached to the skull and those sections are much more rough with small bumps along the surface.

 

 

Some nice finds. Looks like you worked hard and the Peace rewarded you with some nice fossils.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Shellseeker
8 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

The carnassial is an unfinished, unerupted P4 from a canid; not a cat.  I agree with Hulbert, the armor group is from Dasypus bellus. 

 

 

canislatransP4lpaircomposite.jpg

glyptodontarmor.jpg

What am I missing Harry?

I would have IDed your fantastic scute plate as Glyptodont imagesGlypto.jpg.ea98369540c5c41c89b58369ea3ba697.jpg rather than Armadillo... imagesArmadillo.jpg.ef485df649235c26f5b99cedb657770f.jpg

 

I know these are all related in the same family... but I'm getting confused

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digit

I think of both Glyptodont and Holmesina as armadillo-like beasts. Both are in the order Cingulata which is divided into three families:

 

Pampatheriidae (pampatheres) which includes our common Florida find Holmesina floridanus.

Holmesina_3_Clean.png

 

Dasypodidae (long-nosed armadillos) which includes our modern Nine-banded Armadillo as well as the more delicate Dasypus bellus that minnbuckeye found).

1200px-Nine-banded_Armadillo.jpg

 

Chlamyphoridae (glyptodonts and other armadillos) which contains our Glyptotherium floridanum with the distinctive "rosette" osteoderms.

Glyptotheriumm.jpg

 

I enjoy when any of these osteoderms appear in my sifting screen but I especially like finding the tiny (and more easily overlooked) Dasypus bellus.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

 

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Shellseeker

Good Description, Ken  Thanks

A possible ID for #3 Fishy,

or maybe a sawfish rostral tooth, 

 

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digit

Yup. A sawfish rostral "tooth" could be a possibility. Would be nice to see a photo of "fishy" item #3 from the broken side as close-up and focused as possible.

 

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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Harry Pristis

The coyote teeth are just a model for these 'dog' carnassials.  The tooth in question is just a shell, a tooth still developing in the crypt.

 

In canids such as Canis latrans, the upper carnassials (the large pointy cheek tooth) are the fourth premolars (P4). The lower carnassial teeth are the first molar (m1).
It's easy usually to distinguish between canid upper and lower carnassials. The upper carnassial (P4) in canids has three roots (or "fangs" as they are called in some books). The lower carnassial - the molar - has only two roots.
These coyote upper carnassials have a crown length of about 0.8" or ~20.3mm.
Other canid P4 crown lengths are:
For 50 dogs, C. familiaris, the avg. length was . . . . . . . . . . . . 19.28mm
For 111 female coyotes, C. latrans, the avg. lngth. was . . . . . . 19.60mm
For 166 male coyotes, the average length was . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.38mm
For 12 eastern female gray wolves, C. lupus, the avg. was . . . . 22.67mm
For 19 eastern male gray wolves, the avg. P4 length was . . . . . . . . . . 24.55mm
For a good number of dire wolves, C. dirus, the crown length. . . . 30-35mm

 

THe chunk of glyptothere osteoderms I posted is saucer-size, from the animal's buckler. 

 

With reference to the thickness of the Dasypus osteoderms, here's what Gord Edmund had to say:

 

armadillo_armor_text.JPG.ba96eb332861a5e5843b8ed5e522e968.JPG

canislatransP4_canids_text.txt

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minnbuckeye
On ‎3‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:04 PM, Shellseeker said:

For your 5 scutes:

Can't quite tell the thickness..  3 tenths of an inch? Richard is proposing Armadillo scutes.

 

The osteoderms are 3mm thick

 

23 hours ago, digit said:

There. I think we have the redundant images excised and the numbers sequential now.

Ken

 

Thanks Ken

 

22 hours ago, digit said:

Yup. A sawfish rostral "tooth" could be a possibility. Would be nice to see a photo of "fishy" item #3 from the broken side as close-up and focused as possible.

.Ken

 

DSC_0122-001.thumb.JPG.f6b76919dd805c0b35a7be026c92cff1.JPG 

 

 

19 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

The coyote teeth are just a model for these 'dog' carnassials.  The tooth in question is just a shell, a tooth still developing in the crypt.

For 166 male coyotes, the average length was . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 20.38mm
For 19 eastern male gray wolves, the avg. P4 length was . . . . . . . . . . 24.55mm
For a good number of dire wolves, C. dirus, the crown length. . . . 30-35mm

 

 

 

 

canislatransP4_canids_text.txt

 

MY TOOTH MEASURED 29MM!!!!!!!!! (with a chipped end which would have brought it to 30 or more mm), so DIRE WOLF it is!!!! You were absolutely correct, Jeff.

 

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digit

Yup. The cross-section looks about appropriate for a Pristis (Sawfish) rostral "tooth" (highly modified dermal denticle).

 

Cheers.

 

-Ken

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