Coprolite food chain or overactive imagination?

[GeschWhat]

I just wanted to give you all an update. I checked with a local paleontologist, and he confirmed that the larger marks do look like feeding traces. I then contacted Stephen Godfrey at the Calvert Marine Museum. He had written an interesting article on a gar-bitten coprolite. He confirmed that the larger marks could be bite traces. I am thrilled to say this bad boy will soon be re-homed at the Calvert Marine Museum for further study. 

 

NOW A LITTLE RANT:

 

Because this particular coprolite was purchased at the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show, I may not be able to pin down more precise information about where this was found. Lack of provenance can detract from a fossil's scientific value. I know many forum members are already well aware of this fact. Those of you who are, can stop reading now (unless you have nothing better to do with your time). For you novices out there, try to document when and where you find your fossils. Take in situ photos of the fossil and associated stratigraphy if possible. We are lucky to live in an age where most of us own smart phones. Provided you have a signal, you can take get GPS coordinates and save them as a screen shot and save it along with a photo of your find(s). You never know when you or someone down the road may discover something significant in your find. It could be years from now. If you buy something from a commercial seller, I encourage you to try to get/document as much information as you can with respect to geologic formation/stratigraphy, nearby streams/rivers, roads, bridges, intersections, towns/counties, or any other identifiable feature. In the case of trace fossils, try to find out what other type of fossils are found in the vicinity. If you can, find out if it was found in a rock layer or as float (something that has washed out of a cliff or washed in from somewhere else). Many sellers have this information, but don't offer it because most people buying fossils don't care. 

 

Thank you all for your time and assistance! Here are a couple more photos for your viewing pleasure - even one of copro-cat patiently waiting for me to downsize the image. After all, who wouldn't want to see more photos of fossil poo and a cat? 

 

 

[Kane]

That's great news, Lori, congratulations! Fingers crossed that it does turn out to be something scientifically significant.

 

I think the item at the top of your last image is a Felix adorabilis interruptus. I know that species quite well.  

[Fossildude19]

You caught her/him? in partial Blep mode, too.  

[GeschWhat]

1 hour ago, Kane said:

 

I think the item at the top of your last image is a Felix adorabilis interruptus. I know that species quite well.  

Wow, I think you are absolutely correct! Thank you! Can I quote you on that?  

[GeschWhat]

1 hour ago, Fossildude19 said:

You caught her/him? in partial Blep mode, too.  

He's a "Him" - guys are so needy.   He is actually not in blep mode - he's just a mouth breather! The only time he doesn't have his mouth open is when you scratch his neck.

[fossilnut]

2 hours ago, GeschWhat said:

Stephen Godfrey at the Calvert Marine Museum. He had written an interesting article on a gar-bitten coprolite.

Hi I would be very interested in that article. can you give me any info on how to access? I found a gar skull (modern) in the James River which I donated to the Natural History Society of Maryland. I have, however, used it for various displays at the Museum including one about fossil teeth because one theory about the evolution of teeth is "outside-in" meaning teeth evolved from fish scales. Gars have hard enamel scales and I have both modern ones as well as fossil Miocene Epoch gar scales. So this article would be add an interesting piece to the story. Thanks for any help.

Edited March 23, 2018 by fossilnut
inadvertantly I downloaded her entire post versus just the part needed

[abyssunder]

It's an interesting material, Lori, I'm referring to the specimen in question. I can contribute only with what I think might be a resemblance. The "set of four scrape marks" looks to have a continuity on the adjacent side of the coprolite, making me think they may be longitudinal curved striae like in morphotype M1- specimens A, B, C shown below. I could be wrong, also.

 

 

reference: P. Dentzien-Dias et al. 2018. Paleoecological and taphonomical aspects of the Late Miocene vertebrate coprolites (Urumaco Formation) of Venezuela. Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology 490: 590–603

[GeschWhat]

Thank you, @abyssunder, I had actually just read that paper. I've been meaning to post this link to a different thread started by @MarcoSr. What is I find most interesting is that these were produced by herbivores (rodents) and they have been able to identify an extant species that leaves similar droppings. I have numerous examples of these from the Triassic and a few from the Permian with a similar morphology. The striated coprolites are rare compared to other morphotypes. It kind of makes me wonder if the earlier coprolites of this type were made by mammal-like reptiles. I just received a number of larger coprolites from a different Triassic formation from a guy I met at the gem show. He didn't bring them to the show because he didn't think anyone would be interest (little did he know). I have only had a chance to examine them briefly. I won't go into it too much here because it is better suited to the other thread. However, this new batch contain a lot of voids on interior surfaces. So much to explore - so little time!

[abyssunder]

I agree with you, but what makes you think that the specimen is from marine vertebrates and not terrestrial ones ?

[Malone]

Very interesting! I love the cat! Do fish feed on poo, or is it a case of the fish biting and rejecting after tasting? ( not being the poo of choice)?

[GeschWhat]

36 minutes ago, abyssunder said:

I agree with you, but what makes you think that the specimen is from marine vertebrates and not terrestrial ones ?

You have a good point. I guess this was an assumption on my part based on the type of coprolites and other fossils found in the same area. These are usually found when divers are looking for meg teeth. Other items found by the seller were things like whale ear bones and verts. I am trying to pin down a more exact locations (maybe the river it was found in), but don't have much hope. All the guy I talked to at the show could tell me is that their coprolites were found off shore or in coastal rivers of South Carolina. Most of the coprolites in the flats appear to be crocodylian (the flats were labeled as croc coprolites), but there was one huge spiral in there. Here are the ones I picked up from the same dealer. 

[GeschWhat]

8 minutes ago, Malone said:

Very interesting! I love the cat! Do fish feed on poo, or is it a case of the fish biting and rejecting after tasting? ( not being the poo of choice)?

Tasting is one theory. Another is that the marks are made at the time of the kill or perhaps as scavengers go after remains as they float to the bottom. With the smaller traces I think it is more likely that the fish are feeding on the algae or smaller invertebrates that are growing/feeding on the poop. Not much is known about the subject.  The best way to study this type of thing would be to watch feeding activity on the ocean floor. I don't suppose there are many scientists interested in watching to see what happens once the poop hits the bottom. I actually contacted our local aquarium about this, but the waste gets filtered out almost immediately.

[Malone]

1 minute ago, GeschWhat said:

Tasting is one theory. Another is that the marks are made at the time of the kill or perhaps as scavengers go after remains as they float to the bottom. With the smaller traces I think it is more likely that the fish are feeding on the algae or smaller invertebrates that are growing/feeding on the poop. Not much is known about the subject.  The best way to study this type of thing would be to watch feeding activity on the ocean floor. I don't suppose there are many scientists interested in watching to see what happens once the poop hits the bottom. I actually contacted our local aquarium about this, but the waste gets filtered out almost immediately.

I personally have seen fish reject things ( not poo ). When I was a child we would throw things of the dock at night where the light would shine on the water. The fish would lurk waiting on bugs. We would throw whatever we could find, the fish would strike then spit them out. Anyway, your cat looked like it was sticking out his tongue. Very neat!

[abyssunder]

Nice coprolites, Lori! Thank you for posting them here.