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Guest Smilodon

Hey, Boesse or anyone else, I'm into desmostylians and I've noticed that there are small ones that are kind of blue/black and then there are the ginormous ones that are cream colored and often come with bone frags in matrix. I was told that the big creamies are found at an exposure where the big Megs come from as opposed to where the smaller blue/blacks come from with very shelly matrix. I don't know what that means- could someone enlighten me? The tusks also seem to come in the shelly matrix.

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Hey, Boesse or anyone else, I'm into desmostylians and I've noticed that there are small ones that are kind of blue/black and then there are the ginormous ones that are cream colored and often come with bone frags in matrix. I was told that the big creamies are found at an exposure where the big Megs come from as opposed to where the smaller blue/blacks come from with very shelly matrix. I don't know what that means- could someone enlighten me? The tusks also seem to come in the shelly matrix.

Most of the Blue Black Baby teeth an tusks I've seen come from either the Fresmo area or Coalinga. I have only found one of those in Bakersfield.

If only my teeth are so prized a million years from now!

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Guest Smilodon
Most of the Blue Black Baby teeth an tusks I've seen come from either the Fresmo area or Coalinga. I have only found one of those in Bakersfield.

So when people refer to Shark Tooth Hill, does that mean one site, or several sites in the area where the Round Mountain Silt is exposed some of which are privately owned like Ernst's but some of which the public can hunt?

Just trying to get it straight in my mind from here in Delaware.

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So when people refer to Shark Tooth Hill, does that mean one site, or several sites in the area where the Round Mountain Silt is exposed some of which are privately owned like Ernst's but some of which the public can hunt?

Just trying to get it straight in my mind from here in Delaware.

There is a small Hill adjacent to Bob's land which is the world renown Shark Tooth Hill. But it's also used for that generalized area around the Kern River where the exposure can be found.

If only my teeth are so prized a million years from now!

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The different colors are a result of diagenesis, in other words, geologic processes that affect the fossil and surrounding rock after burial. Color is primarily a chemically controlled process, which more specifically is often caused by chemicals and minerals in solution in groundwater migrating through the rock. These chemicals concentrate in the 'gaps' in the mineralogic structure of the tooth enamel.

Bobby

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Guest Smilodon
The different colors are a result of diagenesis, in other words, geologic processes that affect the fossil and surrounding rock after burial. Color is primarily a chemically controlled process, which more specifically is often caused by chemicals and minerals in solution in groundwater migrating through the rock. These chemicals concentrate in the 'gaps' in the mineralogic structure of the tooth enamel.

Bobby

I wasn't asking about the colors. I was asking about the depositional size variance

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sounds like sorting by fluid dynamics, which seems hugely common everywhere i go where water flows. but then again, it could be that the teenager desmostylians didn't want to hang out with the adults. you know how kids are.

article

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Guest Smilodon
sounds like sorting by fluid dynamics, which seems hugely common everywhere i go where water flows. but then again, it could be that the teenager desmostylians didn't want to hang out with the adults. you know how kids are.

article

It's more than fluid dynamics because

1. The matrix is totally different

2. Big tusks which can easily exceed 12 inches are found in with the little teeth matrix - not with the big desmo or big meg teeth.

So I'll ask it differently - Where are the big meg teeth found versus the makos etc.

It is a puzzlement.

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I don't know what you're observing. To be honest, it sounds like each locality needs more sampling - desmostylian teeth shouldn't be size segregated, unless they are hydraulically sorted (much like pebbles).

Bobby

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I don't know what you're observing. To be honest, it sounds like each locality needs more sampling - desmostylian teeth shouldn't be size segregated, unless they are hydraulically sorted (much like pebbles).

Bobby

Small teeth come associated with 12 inch tusks in shelly matrix. Big teeth, I'm talking softball size seem to come with pieces of jawbone and (apparently) associated with big megs. I've seen 3 softball size ones in 25 years. I have one with jawbone frags around it, my buddy has one in the jaw, and the other one I'm trying to get. I'm told mine and my buddy's were in Ernst's personal collection and I have no reason to doubt it. Mine was presented to me as the MOTHER OF ALL DESMOSTYLUS TEETH.

Look I don't wish to make a federal case - don't try to force it if I'm not clear, or you are uncertain. Thanks anywhoo

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Small teeth come associated with 12 inch tusks in shelly matrix. Big teeth, I'm talking softball size seem to come with pieces of jawbone and (apparently) associated with big megs. I've seen 3 softball size ones in 25 years. I have one with jawbone frags around it, my buddy has one in the jaw, and the other one I'm trying to get. I'm told mine and my buddy's were in Ernst's personal collection and I have no reason to doubt it. Mine was presented to me as the MOTHER OF ALL DESMOSTYLUS TEETH.

Look I don't wish to make a federal case - don't try to force it if I'm not clear, or you are uncertain. Thanks anywhoo

I'm not sure where your tooth with shell fragments came from.? At STH(round mountain silt) there is very little if any shell fragments. In the bone layer I have hunted there are teeth of every size. Are you saying that Desmostylus was on Megs diet.??

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Do you think you could post a pic. of that tooth? Coming from Bob's collection it must be awsome!!

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Guest Smilodon
Do you think you could post a pic. of that tooth? Coming from Bob's collection it must be awsome!!

Hi Mako,

Here are two images from the internet

post-2027-1250439962.jpg

classic small, 1/12 incher, blue black, shelly matrix

post-2027-1250440120_thumb.jpg

classic tusk, foot-long, in shelly matrix

Do these look familiar to any STH/desmohead collectors out there?

As for my tooth, you'll have to wait until later in the week when I get to my safe deposit box. In preparation, fourm members should be sitting down and have a roll of paper towels nearby. Oh, and wear sunglasses too.

Given my decades in fossiling, I'd say it's the desmo equivalent of a nine inch Meg.

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Hi Mako,

Here are two images from the internet

post-2027-1250439962.jpg

classic small, 1/12 incher, blue black, shelly matrix

post-2027-1250440120_thumb.jpg

classic tusk, foot-long, in shelly matrix

Do these look familiar to any STH/desmohead collectors out there?

As for my tooth, you'll have to wait until later in the week when I get to my safe deposit box. In preparation, fourm members should be sitting down and have a roll of paper towels nearby. Oh, and wear sunglasses too.

Given my decades in fossiling, I'd say it's the desmo equivalent of a nine inch Meg.

Yeah that matrix is definetly (from my trip experience) not STH matrix. They might be from further north around the bay area. The Round Mountain silt is supprisinly absent of shell material. Part of the STH deposit debates. Great pics., can't wait for the Desmo photo's.

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Yeah that matrix is definetly (from my trip experience) not STH matrix. They might be from further north around the bay area. The Round Mountain silt is supprisinly absent of shell material. Part of the STH deposit debates. Great pics., can't wait for the Desmo photo's.

Good info - that's why I asked the question in the first place, because being back here in the east we just call everything just a generic STH area. The matrix that the large desmos are in is fine grained sand with no shell.

So, I'm unfamiliar with the "bay area" phrase that you used - more info please.

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Good info - that's why I asked the question in the first place, because being back here in the east we just call everything just a generic STH area. The matrix that the large desmos are in is fine grained sand with no shell.

So, I'm unfamiliar with the "bay area" phrase that you used - more info please.

North of bakersfield, I've never hunted there but I'm guessing Santa Cruz(S.F. bay). Also maybe south down by San Diego. But like I said, from my experience not Bakersfield, The area refered to as STH is suprisingly void of shell material.

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North of bakersfield, I've never hunted there but I'm guessing Santa Cruz(S.F. bay). Also maybe south down by San Diego. But like I said, from my experience not Bakersfield, The area refered to as STH is suprisingly void of shell material.

I've dug a few times in the Miocene San Mateo creek formation in Oceanside (San Diego) and didn't come across many shells. It is mainly cobble beds interbedded with poorly consolidated sandstone. I also have never seen any shells in the STH bonebed or fossil layers although John in his valley fever posts talks about finding a spot where the layer was full of shells, obviously not common at sth.

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I've dug a few times in the Miocene San Mateo creek formation in Oceanside (San Diego) and didn't come across many shells. It is mainly cobble beds interbedded with poorly consolidated sandstone. I also have never seen any shells in the STH bonebed or fossil layers although John in his valley fever posts talks about finding a spot where the layer was full of shells, obviously not common at sth.
I have never hunted the Jewett Sand maybe that's where the shell matrix is from??
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Yeah that matrix is definetly (from my trip experience) not STH matrix. They might be from further north around the bay area. The Round Mountain silt is supprisinly absent of shell material. Part of the STH deposit debates. Great pics., can't wait for the Desmo photo's.

I can answer this question. Both specimens are from a Fresno County site (CA) at Monocline Ridge (teeth and tusk enamel were almost always that blue-black color). Back in the 70's and 80's, several people used to dig there, including Bob Ernst. In fact, that was one of the few places he did a lot of digging outside of his own property. He and others told me it was hard digging but it was perhaps the only locality where Desmostylus could be collected in quantity. I believe he said he could collect 20-25 teeth in a day and this was confirmed by another friend who dug it years ago. Anywhere else in the world (desmostylians have been found only in Japan and North America - maybe another island or two in the northwestern Pacific), you are lucky to find one in maybe ten years of regular collecting.

The site has been pretty much exhausted now. I talked to Bob about it. He said he knew of a site where someone could try but it would likely be a waste of effort - days of overburden removal for little reward. He advised not bothering with it. Bob was a seemingly tireless digger even in his 60's and would put in the time if he thought it would pay off, so, I think it's safe to say "Desmo fans" are going to have to chance upon a new site.

The Monocline Ridge locality also produced shark teeth but they were almost always without roots. I saw an Isurus hastalis crown in a matrix piece with a Desmostylus tooth once. Another collector said he had a megalodon but I never saw one from there. You could get complete shells occasionally but they were usually broken. The matrix seemed to be mostly shells. The real prize from that formation was a Palaeoparadoxia tooth, also known from the STH bonebed, the Lower Santa Margarita, the Skooner Gulch Formation, and a few others. It was rare there but it was probably the locality where you had the best chance to find one.

I heard the site has been off-limits for some time. The landowner stopped letting people collect there about the time it began getting harder to dig (more overburden needing to be removed). Then, there was a time when the landowner was going to swap land with the BLM but that deal never went through

Pretty much just the teeth and some tusks were were found there. Bones were collected but they were really beat-up. Incidentally, they came from the Temblor Formation. Some people still say the STH bonebed is within the Temblor but that is old info from the 1940's at least.

The largest teeth I've seen come from the STH bonebed (though I saw some near that size from Monocline Ridge as well) and they can be a cream/off-white or they can be grayish with blue and other colors mixed in like the shark teeth. You can get Desmostylus jaw sections from it too but I've seen three specimens total (all dug by Bob Ernst). Your buddy should hang onto that jaw section - near impossible to replace.

That cream-colored tooth that flashes periodically on this site is from the STH bonebed.

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Good info - that's why I asked the question in the first place, because being back here in the east we just call everything just a generic STH area. The matrix that the large desmos are in is fine grained sand with no shell.

So, I'm unfamiliar with the "bay area" phrase that you used - more info please.

"Bay Area," when said in California by a Californian generally means the San Francisco Bay Area.

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Guest Smilodon

Thanks very much - very helpful explanation. Yes, up in the flash portion of the screen a cream colored one does appear. If I get up off my $#@ I'll post a photo of mine. Thanks, again.

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