Real Hollardops mesocristata?

[xDiamondX]

Hi all

 

I came across this Hollardops mesocristata and was wondering if it is real?

 

It has a crack running through the right side of the cephalon (surrounded in red in one of the photos) and also has excellent eye detail leading me to suggest it is real. It also has very well detailed pustules on its surface.

 

What do you guys think?

[Tidgy's Dad]

Beautiful, and very very real. 

A gorgeous specimen.

The crack is where the original rock was cracked open and when the orientation of the specimen was established it was glued back together and prep work began. 

The detail is superb and that's not resin bubbles. 

 

[Kane]

It is real. Buy with confidence. The coating will be artificial which is standard among many trilobites from these region.

[ynot]

That is one of the nicest trilobites I have seen in this sub forum!

[izak_]

Just now, ynot said:

That is one of the nicest trilobites I have seen in this sub forum!

^ what ynoT said ^

[DevonianDigger]

Buy it, or I will, lol! The price is a little high, but totally worth it for a totally AAA+ specimen. (I found it for sale as well )

 

That's one of the best looking Hollardops I've ever seen, and very real!

[aeon.rocks]

11 hours ago, DevonianDigger said:

Buy it, or I will, lol! The price is a little high, but totally worth it for a totally AAA+ specimen. (I found it for sale as well )

 

 

 

My english might come out a little rough here, but is not meant. I think it's great to ask questions, we all learn. I just wonder when will we see Penn Dixie or Oklahoma bugs authenticity questioned?

 

The bug is real! But:

 

"Price is a little high?" Had to comment on that.  Yes, I'm sure you can find another real one for even as low as 60$, but heavily overblasted... If you go lower you probably don't know anymore if it's real or not. It usually is, just massacred.

 

It's really a bargain deal! If I am looking at the same one the reseller asks 99$ for this detailed preped Hollardops, which took easily 10-20 hours prep-time and that will still pay the resellers margin, lol... So perhaps you are right that the price is a little high, if you meant to advise the OP to travel to Morocco and haggle the price directly from a moroccan preparator. It's a common specie, but not common seen nicely preped, because the skin is usually sticky and although it's not a spiny one, it's not just like blasting a shale Penn Dixie trilo. Considering prep-time it's really not a little high price! More like very low! I have not seen many Moroccan bugs with unreasonable high price, usually it's still reasonable even if resellers add a high margin (except from 3 resellers in USA, but no, the 1000$ prices on spiny moroccan preped trilobites are usually still a bargain considering prep-time, rarity of good specimens and price of similar USA species - take Dicranurus for example, it's just as hard to find a good one in Morocco as in Oklahoma, the main price difference is determined in the market due to statistical difference of people digging and preping). If you take the time to find out about the effort to preserve detail in a hard matrix and how long it takes to prep Moroccan bugs (and what takes to prep some other commercialy sold common trilobites in shale matrix), I'm sure you'll agree. 

 

Not many preparators in USA would even start the work on unpreped Hollardops to sell it for 99$! Do you know how much one of these would cost in USA rates? 300-600$! Moroccan price is just crazy cheap and to think people have to ask authenticity questions for preps like this based on common uninformed knowledge and stories about Moroccan fakes is very sad. Times have changed in these last 20 years, there are a lot more real trilobites coming out of Morocco, millions of real trilobites in Morocco. If you can see details like in case of this bug I would say it's a good buy and you are just as safe as buying USA trilobites... 

[Tidgy's Dad]

1 hour ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

My english might come out a little rough here, but is not meant. I think it's great to ask questions, we all learn. I just wonder when will we see Penn Dixie or Oklahoma bugs authenticity questioned?

 

The bug is real! But:

 

"Price is a little high?" Had to comment on that.  Yes, I'm sure you can find another real one for even as low as 60$, but heavily overblasted... If you go lower you probably don't know anymore if it's real or not. It usually is, just massacred.

 

It's really a bargain deal! If I am looking at the same one the reseller asks 99$ for this detailed preped Hollardops, which took easily 10-20 hours prep-time and that will still pay the resellers margin, lol... So perhaps you are right that the price is a little high, if you meant to advise the OP to travel to Morocco and haggle the price directly from a moroccan preparator. It's a common specie, but not common seen nicely preped, because the skin is usually sticky and although it's not a spiny one, it's not just like blasting a shale Penn Dixie trilo. Considering prep-time it's really not a little high price! More like very low! I have not seen many Moroccan bugs with a little high price (except from 3 resellers in USA, but no, the 1000$ prices on spiny moroccan preped trilobites are usually still a bargain considering prep-time, rarity of good specimens and price of similar USA species - take Dicranurus for example, it's just as hard to find a good one in Morocco as in Oklahoma, the main price difference is determined in the market due to statistical difference of people digging and preping), since the time I found out what it takes to prep them (and what takes to prep other commercialy seen trilobites). 

 

Not many preparators in USA would even start the work on unpreped Hollardops to sell it for 99$! Do you know how much one of these would cost in USA rates? 300-600$! Moroccan price is just crazy cheap and to think people have to ask authenticity questions for preps like this based on common uninformed knowledge and stories about Moroccan fakes is very sad. Times have changed in these last 20 years, there are a lot more real trilobites coming out of Morocco, millions of real trilobites in Morocco. If you can see details like in case of this bug I would say it's a good buy and you are just as safe as buying USA trilobites... 

I quite agree with the vast majority of your statement but would like to point out that a large number of fakes are indeed still produced here as well as composites and pieces that have been 'enhanced' with bits added. 

It pays for members to post here and check, just to be on the safe side. 

[aeon.rocks]

1 hour ago, Tidgy's Dad said:

I quite agree with the vast majority of your statement but would like to point out that a large number of fakes are indeed still produced here as well as composites and pieces that have been 'enhanced' with bits added. 

It pays for members to post here and check, just to be on the safe side. 

 

Of course, I find such posts and questions helpfull, just to be on the safe side and new members can learn...

 

It's good to be carefull in case of all trilobites, not just trilobites from Morocco, very expensive species from USA and Russia are often composited and enhanced for display purpose and to catch a higher price too... Morocco is just the largest fossil industry, with plenty of real trilobites. But often we see mostly Moroccan trilobites in question and Moroccan preparation work of real trilobites undervalued because of people thinking they are fake and priced a little too high... So I commented because of the mentioned "a little to high price", which is imho low price considering prep-work and even more if compared to easier to prep just as common species of trilobites found in USA.

 

Also, Moroccan pizza fakes and mold-made fakes of devonian trilobites are actually often very obvious, if you know what to look for, unlike cambrian moroccan trilobite fakes or some USA and Russian trilobites.  There are a lot more real trilobites of common moroccan species like Hollardops in the market as there are fake trilobites from Morocco, at least online (some fossil shows are exception), it's just not worth making a realistic detailed fake of Hollardops. 

[Fossildude19]

3 hours ago, aeon.rocks said:

 

My english might come out a little rough here, but is not meant. I think it's great to ask questions, we all learn. I just wonder when will we see Penn Dixie or Oklahoma bugs authenticity questioned?

 

The bug is real! But:

 

"Price is a little high?" Had to comment on that.  Yes, I'm sure you can find another real one for even as low as 60$, but heavily overblasted... If you go lower you probably don't know anymore if it's real or not. It usually is, just massacred.

 

It's really a bargain deal!

 

 

Penn Dixie Trilobites are common, and well preserved, and easily prepped, as are the Oklahoma trilobites. 

With them being so common, there is little reason to fake them.

The spiny ones may have some spines or integuement restored, but I don't believe I have ever seen a composite piece from either of these localities.   

 

As far as price - that really is a matter of perspective, depending on the financial status of the buyer.  

 

I do agree with you that it is a reasonable price for the trilobite in question.  

Regards,

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

The spiny ones may have some spines or integuement restored, but I don't believe I have ever seen a composite piece from either of these localities.   

 

There is little reason to fake common moroccan trilobites like Hollardops, Kettneraspis, Phacopsids...

 

I've seen some with nondisclosed restoration work on few Penn Dixie and Oklahoma trilos, not usual and just a little bit, much below 5%, but never questioned although it makes just as much sense to fake those as a hollardops with details. Difference is when moroccan bugs are restored they are considered almost as fake. And I've seen a lot of expensive composites from Russia, librigenia, pygidium or spines fixed to match almost perfectly; even more, if you consider a new matrix replacement a composition work. But almost always it's questions about moroccan trilobites.

 

In regards to price, always difficult to compare and I agree, always a matter of perspective, depending on the financial status of the buyer too. But if Moroccan rates were any similar to those of Oklahoma or Penn Dixie trilos only a few collectors could afford most of them, even the common ones. We would probably have a lot less authenticity questions too.

[Fossildude19]

Unfortunately, the fact is, Moroccan trilobites, with their fanciful multi-plates of ammonoids,trilobites, and casts of trilobites, (with air holes and fake attached matrix,) are more known for doing this sort of thing. (That is without even mentioning the frakenstein-trilos that aren't even real species, that are totally carved!) 

I have yet to see an Oklahoma or PennDixie Trilobite cut in half to show this sort of fakery.  

 

    

 

They've brought the bad reputation on themselves for producing so many of these types of fakes, and widely marketing them as real or authentic specimens.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

Unfortunately, the fact is, Moroccan trilobites, with their fanciful multi-plates of ammonoids,trilobites, and casts of trilobites, (with air holes and fake attached matrix,) are more known for doing this sort of thing. (That is without even mentioning the frakenstein-trilos that aren't even real species, that are totally carved!) 

I have yet to see an Oklahoma or PennDixie Trilobite cut in half to show this sort of fakery.  

Quote

 

 

 

I know exactlly what guide you got those photos from, I assume the OP has read it too and that's a good thing. It's good collectors ask questions like this, because the saying you get what you pay for is very true also in case of moroccan trilobites. People expect a real Dicranurus or Psychopyge for 20$ or 50$... Seems like even a common Hollardops preped in detail is priced a little to high when priced for 99$... I guess that's already what some would prefer to pay for a Comura?  I agree mostly with you however, I doubt you will see Oklahoma or PennDixie trilobites ever cut in half. Too easy to prep and too quick to prep to be worth faking, Penn Dixie common Eldredgeops is easily 10-20 minutes quick prep-job for 20-50$... Try to prep a common Gerastos for 20$ with similar details preserved, I bet it will take a lot more as 20 minutes, probably more like 4-10 hours, unless you damage the skin completely. That quick prep is a moroccan way to come close to USA rates, because the market wants cheap trilobites.

 

Quote

They've brought the bad reputation on themselves for producing so many of these types of fakes, and widely marketing them as real or authentic specimens.   

 

No they didn't. Not all of them, there are honest sellers too. Will you judge all American sellers if one of them goes crazy? Many Moroccans selling trilobites don't approve fakes and there are a lot of professionals.  Preparators and sellers who know very well how to keep good reputation. 20 years ago I would have agreed, but times have changed! Fakes are still present in Morocco, but on a much smaller scale as 10 or 20 years ago. A lot nicer preped trilobites are preped in Moroccan labs with modern equipment too. 

 

 

Like authors wrote in 2003 when that article was written:

"It is important to note that this article was written in 2003.  Much can change in a year not to mention several."

 

It did change, there are a lot more Moroccans who prep professionaly and do their best even for a bargain price! However, moroccan fakes did not get any better, they are still obvious from a mile away!

 

 

Fact is also that Morocco is the largest fossil industry for trilobites atm, Morocco produces more trilobites in the market in a year as USA preparators and sellers put in the market combined in 5 years. In every commerce of that scale fakes are present. Farmaceutical companies even fake Viagra pills. 

[Kane]

Excellent posts, everyone.  I would just embroider one additional point here about price: for those who may subscribe to the labour theory of value, one has to factor in the time and materials involved in collecting and preparing these trilobites, with a small margin to make it slightly profitable, as aeon.rocks said. The price is also a function of the market, which more often than not depresses the labour value in order to remain competitive (I'd insert here Marx's law of the tendency for the rate of profit to fall over time, but not today  ). There is an expectation for cheap trilobites which drives the price function, just as outsourcing labour to the developing world gets us hooked on buying a zillion pairs of socks at Wal*Mart for 10 bucks. 

 

I almost never see cheap Oklahoma trilos from the Haragan Fm. Even PD ranas seem to hover around 50 for a roller, 100 for a prone (they do take a bit more than 10-20 minutes to prep! Factor in about a half hour or more for a roller that is already coming out half decent). In the US and other developed nations, the cost of living is higher with higher overall wages, and so labour time gets baked into the price at a higher value.

 

I agree that we cannot broadly disparage an entire nation on the basis of a few bad apples. There are indeed many honest Moroccan preparators/sellers. But, given the size of their market, if only 5% are fakers, that is a much more significant number in Morocco than 5% of sellers in the US.

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

they do take a bit more than 10-20 minutes to prep! 

 

A bit yes, more no. Wanna bet? I'll send a few to Moroccan preparators...

[Kane]

Just now, aeon.rocks said:

 

A bit yes, more no. Wanna bet? I'll send a few to Moroccan preparators...

Well, that wouldn't be fair! A good Moroccan preparator would blitz through 10 of them by the time we got through one!  I would still say 30 minutes is a good ballpark figure for a PD roller to get it "perfect." A rough prep would definitely cut the time, though.

[aeon.rocks]

Hehe, yes, fun aside, I agree with all just said.

[Fossildude19]

As they say, "It only takes one bad apple to spoil the basket full."  

 

And I am not saying every Moroccan trilobite is a fake or all Moroccan dealers are unscrupulous.  

I understand this.  

 

I'm just stating that there are more fakes and composites in Moroccan trilos that are offered versus American ones. 

Blame it on industry size for the percentage, but the fact remains, not many resin casts of Eldredgeops or Greenops, out there.   (I've never seen one toted as real for sale.) 

 

And prep time, again, is subjective, depending on what you have for prepping tools, and experience.   

We all know the Moroccan matrix is harder than the Penn Dixie stuff.   We know prepping them takes a lot longer. 

 

But a good prep job on American trilos can take considerably longer than 10 to 20 minutes.
This is also dependent on how hard the limestone or shales are that the trilos are in, and how much work needs to be done. Some come out needing no prep at all to have a nice fossil. 

But the limestones at PD can be hard, and the trilos can be a bit sticky, at times. 

So, as with labeling all Moroccan dealers unscrupulous, ... labeling all PD or Oklahoma Trilobite preparations as easy should be avoided, as well.  

[DevonianDigger]

I have been trying to reply to this thread all morning, but people keep adding to it to the point where I don't feel it's even meaningful to respond anymore. My basic point is this; a member asked for advice on whether a trilobite was real or not. Unanimously, the answer was yes, it is real. Also unanimously, everyone commented on how fine of a piece it was, (including myself.) I stated that the price was higher than average for a Hollardops, which, whether you like it or not, and whether you approve of the economic drivers in this matter or not, is a 100% verifiable fact. HOWEVER, I also stated that it was well worth it because of the quality of the specimen. Not sure why it was chosen to go down this particular rabbit hole. And for the record, the last Penn Dixie trilobite that I prepped out and sold, sold for less than that Hollardops and took me between 4-5 hours of prep time. Generalizations can be a slippery slope. ...generally speaking.

 

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

So, as with labeling all Moroccan dealers unscrupulous, ... labeling all PD or Oklahoma Trilobite preparations as easy should be avoided, as well.  

 

 

True, I agree! It was just a comparison in regards to pricing. Can take a lot more as 20 minutes for some species, but Oklahoma bugs are a lot more fun to prep in general!  

 

Price is important for fakes discussions, collectors with limited budget to 50$ will likely buy more fakes as collectors who understand it's commercially impossible to offer a good prepared Commura or Psychopyge for that amount. All Moroccan trilobites are priced very cheap for the work and effort that goes into each of those. From that perspective it's not even worth to prep moroccan trilobites yourself. Makes more sense to just buy preped, prep-time costs (in the developed world) always exceed the value in the market in case of Moroccan bugs.

[aeon.rocks]

Quote

I stated that the price was higher than average for a Hollardops, which, whether you like it or not, and whether you approve of the economic drivers in this matter or not, is a 100% verifiable fact

 

If details don't play a role, it's best to buy one for 20-50$ or travel to Morocco to get one cheaper. Quality has a price, as you said: 

Quote

but totally worth it for a totally AAA+ specimen. (I found it for sale as well ) That's one of the best looking Hollardops I've ever seen, and very real!

 

I just added my opinion, because I think majority of common commercially preped USA bugs in the market are not priced a little to high compared to the work that goes into common moroccan bugs which are crazy cheap, but nevertheless, worth what it sells for. Sorry, i'm just tired of posts about fake moroccan trilobites, makes one wonder if that are the only fake trilobites out there.   

[Max-fossils]

8 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

localities.   

Hey Tim, I must ask. (I know I'm going off-topic, hopefully you'll forgive me for that )

How come that this emoticon doesn't appear in my "emoticon list/box"? It appears when I type ":unsure:" and then press the spacebar, but that is the only way it can work for me. Is that like that for all users, that this emoticon doesn't appear in the list, but does work when you type it in, or is it something wrong with my list?

[Fossildude19]

Max, 

I wish I knew. It was one that I use quite a bit, ( I am often unsure  ) and it must be somewhere in the database, ... but apparently does not show up in the list anywhere.   

  is another one I use from time to time, as is   .   

 

 

 

 

 

[DevonianDigger]

It's a fake emoticon, or at least it's been restored quite heavily.

 

[xDiamondX]

13 minutes ago, DevonianDigger said:

It's a fake emoticon, or at least it's been restored quite heavily.