Kane Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 On 4/5/2018 at 11:41 AM, aeon.rocks said: Fakes are produced everywhere, even in AMNH museum! Not quite sure what you mean by this. ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Kane said: Not quite sure what you mean by this. Check their galleries... Here is one example. Think this Bufo is real? It’s just as fake as moroccan casts, only the base is real rock, the rest is mostly plastic... Great job tho! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 12 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said: Check their galleries... Here is one example. Think this Bufo is real? It’s just as fake as moroccan casts, only the base is real rock, the rest is mostly plastic... Great job tho! So you're saying the AMNH is intentionally creating fakes? I would think a bulk of their specimens are donated. ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 No, i’m just saying they should declare heavy restoration jobs... Some restoration on trilobites is normal for display purpose, but usually people consider it a problem in case of moroccan trilobites... You heard about complaints of masking hits with shoe polish? It’s a kind of resto too, if you want to think about that bufo as restored... But sometimes resto turns into art (and not professional science). Like in case of this Hoplo with fake eyes or spines, also not declared! ...and it’s more worrysome when imaginary featured specimens like this get in the books as real (compared to obvious moroccan fakes): Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 1 hour ago, aeon.rocks said: No, i’m just saying they should declare heavy restoration jobs... ...Like in case of this Hoplo with fake eyes or spines, also not declared... AMNH is doing a great job. Please read more carefully: 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcfossilcollector Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Hi aeon.rocks. I don’t see a problem with these particular examples of trilobites from the AMNH having restoration work done unless your implying that the restoration is not indicative of what the “bugs” would have actually looked like pre mortem/fossilization? Even an interpretation of a poorly understood specimen might allowed for? After all the AMNH is not selling these specimens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Also, this image was not posted by AMNH: 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 I have nothing against amnh or usa preparators and sellers, the image posted was an example of nondisclosed restoration. They are doing a great job, but some of usa bugs need a description too. That description was added, there’s been a lot of talk about fake features on russian lichids years ago. And i agree. Spines (shorter) could be considered as interpretation of life condition, eyes on those lichids not. Those eyes are less scientificaly accurate fake as a moroccan dicranurus cast! Moroccan shoe polish could be an interpretation of life like condition too if you want. Kidding! But you are right, should have not used term “produced”, find them in would suit better, although the story i heard about that Bufo was not a story of donation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranha Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 47 minutes ago, Kane said: So you're saying the AMNH is intentionally creating fakes? I would think a bulk of their specimens are donated. 39 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said: No, i’m just saying they should declare heavy restoration jobs... 4 minutes ago, aeon.rocks said: I have nothing against amnh or usa preparators and sellers, the image posted was an example of nondisclosed restoration. They are doing a great job,... Yes, but they actually did make the disclosure. If we follow your initial response it appears to unfairly implicate AMNH. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 On 4/15/2018 at 3:25 AM, aeon.rocks said: That description was added, there’s been a lot of talk about fake features on russian lichids years ago. But you are right, should have not used term “produced”, find them in would suit better, although the story i heard about that Bufo was not a story of donation... I missed description on russian lichid, typing from phone... As i wrote (quoted myself above), it was added some time ago. They are doing a better job as most museums! I agree... In regards to my comment about nondisclosed resto! No they did not. That bufoceraurus is more heavily restored in % as both lichids in example combined. Where is that description? Perhaps they missed that resto, but is not the only nondisclosed example in galleries. It was also purchased unrestored... If you don’t see a problem with these examples, i guess you don’t see it with moroccan fakes or shoe polish restored trilobites neither and people unfairly implicate moroccan preparators al the time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 aeon.rocks, I think your point has been made. No one is disparaging Moroccan diggers or preparators here. The facts of the matter are these : Sellers WORLD WIDE are either deliberately or unknowingly selling the fakes. Fakes also come from China, and Russia. USA Green River fish are often painted/enhanced, or composited to "look better" is well known as well. Morocco, as a country, has gotten a bad reputation for fake fossils because of the pure volume of trilobites, ammonites, mosasaur jaws and skulls, turtle skulls. etc. that come out of that country. It has already known by members and staff here that no one country is to blame for what happens to it's fossils, or reproductions, once they leave that country. The fact that the replicas, reproductions, and outright fakes are available at all, is what drives people WORLD WIDE to get greedy and try to sell things as real or with undisclosed enhancements or repairs. I think all of the salient points have been made. 9 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 It's a jungle out there... Get educated, remain skeptical, trust-but-confirm. Don't let your enthusiasm and collecting zeal give you rose-colored glasses. 1 "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 yep,totally agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 Quote No one is disparaging Moroccan diggers or preparators here. It's one of the forums where a lot of questions and comments arise regarding cheap trilobites. Topics like this might help new collectors to think critically about fossils worldwide, learn that details matter and understand why cheap price despite all the effort and work behind each trilo, instead of just "screaming" fake based on country of origin only... If everyone interested in moroccan trilobites could try to prep a few, they would be happy if we can get shoe polished trilobites for a bargain deal. Would also help understand high prices or why 99$ is a very good deal for all details preserved preped natural bug like Hollardops sp., even if common... Compared to price of non-moroccan trilobites... Always good to remain sceptic and get educated... Started topic to help avoid some cheap or expensive fakes... And I see no problem in such discussions, but yeah Moroccan diggers and preparators have earned my respect a long time ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 There might be people here less schooled in bugs. "Bufo"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 https://www.amnh.org/our-research/paleontology/paleontology-faq/trilobite-website/gallery-of-trilobites/master-gallery-of-all-website-trilobites-a-c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 edit I think Congreve (his thesis,2013)posits that Bufoceraurus doesn't merit separate status from Ceraurus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Image from Isotalo, P.A. (2015) Ordovician Trilobites of Southern Ontario. Siri Scientific Press. ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kane Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Image from Hessin, W.A. (2009). South-Central Ontario Fossils: A Guide to the Ancient Marine Life of the Region. ...How to Philosophize with a Hammer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 In my opinion, the diggers are true heroes! I give as an example, a story of a digger named Benaklla, who is only 45 years old, but from so much digging leading a hard life, he seems to be at least 10 years older... In the Erfoud region of Morocco, he works in a 5-meter hole, which he himself dug with shovels and pickaxes... Even though Benaklla is a skinny man with rude, callused and almost toothless hands, he can still remove the debris climbing the walls with incredible agility! Benaklla took a month to open this hole, but still he will have to continue digging several meters horizontally until he can find the fossils he is looking for. It is important to say here that he works this way even in the summer, experiencing temperatures in excess of 40 degrees. And it's not just Benaklla, because hundreds of diggers work the same way to be able to support the family in this Moroccan desert area. These diggers can spend up to 4 months digging without finding anything at all, and when they find an excellent fossil, the maximum they earn is 3,000 dirhams, or about US $320,00! But in order to gain this value, the fossil must be very wonderful and a very large plate, which can take the whole year for this, since all that is usually found, are low quality fossils, that the diggers sell for about US $3,50 by pound! Who really makes money, is not the digger, nor is the preparer who spends 24 hours a day in a deafening environment of sawing noises, motorized grinders, with asphyxiating dust clouds, which often not even have the money to buy of protective materials, all they use to protect themselves, are rudimentary wipes that cover their faces and ordinary glasses... And it is difficult to find in this region preparers who have money to invest in dental drills and sandblasting equipment ... Who actually makes money is not the local stores that usually sell the fossil twice or triple what they paid for the preparers, but yes, who really earns money, are the sellers of the internet, who can sell for an absurd price a rare trilobite , which in a store in Morocco, cost him about US $7,50! I do not know whether this gigantic amount of trilobites completely falsified or improved makeup, are being made in Morocco or in the countries that buy to do the resale. But what I'm sure of is that we are collectors, we must become experts and seek to know everything about that fossil before making the purchase! 2 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeon.rocks Posted April 15, 2018 Author Share Posted April 15, 2018 Pretty much summed up story of cheap low grade common fossils, yes... That looks like Kem Kem formation, but there is a similar story behind all moroccan trilobites. All couches (quarries/trenches) are dug by hand with shovels and pickaxes and some require 1-3 meters of limestone overburden to be removed! And after a good rare spiny trilobite species is found or a good non-spiny cross section, which can take days or weeks of digging, it takes days or weeks more for careful preparation in lab to be able to offer a detailed good specimen of Comura, Walliserops, Dicranurus or similar in the market. Even small non-spiny hard matrix moroccan devonian trilobite specie takes at least 10-20 hours to prep in detail. Rarely bugs are found good preserved, many times molted remains or trilobites with missing parts are revealed in cross sections, often also after already working on promissing looking cross sections for many hours... And specimens with missing pieces of shell from the break often require some restoration... It's actually very sad the work of most Moroccan diggers and preparators has not much value at all, also thanks to shady Moroccan reputation spread by "experts on fake trilobites" (who never preped a trilobite, never held a quality preped trilobite in hand, never were digging for trilobites in Morocco, but heard stories of fakes) and unaware buyers, who have no idea about the efforts invested in each bug.... If you take rates of devonian Oklahoma trilobite specimens as comparison, neglecting a bit more prep friendly matrix and machinery used for excavation, I would say most good preped moroccan bugs in the market are at least 3-5x too cheap! So although most good preped or spiny trilobites are not really as cheap in Morocco as Seguidora-de-Isis states (but is true for massacred quick commercially damaged specimens and fakes), in the end resellers make most of the profit. That's also why I rant about professionalism of some resellers offering fakes... As Theodore put it: "The effort to retrieve these trilobites is often unappreciated until you see it in person." http://nautiloid.net/fossils/sites/alnif/atchana.html 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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